Monster Knowledge Check, Monster Roles? Minion or not?

[Engilbrand]

I usually try to use obvious figures on the board and actually tell them. We try to make combat more cinematic, so this gives them the ability to describe exactly how they kill the guys, rather than just hoping.
I got into D&D about 8 years ago, and I've only really put effort into DMing 4e. I don't like the idea of the DM as some sort of god-like figure. Our games are very cooperative. Everything that happens is based on my players' preferences. I refuse to use a DM screen. Actually, I think that the use of a DM screen as anything more than easy access to information is bad DMing. I don't hide rolls from my players, and it's pretty easy for them to look at the page I'm on or at the notebook and see how many hit points the non-minion enemies have left. It just makes sense that they'd know who the minions are.

 

[Ryujin]

When I DM, minions are either obvious by the figures that I use for them, or I actually call them minions. The DM for the campaign in which I regularly play makes it obvious that they're minions, without ever actually saying it. Usually the guys who are waving their weapons over their heads while charging at you, with seeming complete disdain for their own safety, are minions.

Unfortunately that DM likes to use exploding enemies, so it's rather sticky deciding when to use the pact dagger to pop them.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Saying "These are minions, you don't really need to worry about them and they're easy targets for you to get your THP and other powers that trigger when you drop an enemy." is wrong . Where's the fun in that fight?

Obviously, we have different opinions. I find a LOT of fun in that fight. That gives the players, the HEROES, clear tactical decisions thereby enhancing the players' fun; as opposed to making the players guess in the dark, so to speak, and possibly pissing in the wind. Do you really think it's fun as the DM to watch the PC's piss in the wind?

Regardless, minions are still supposed to have level-appropriate defenses and attack rolls, so besides their hp-count, they're not wimps like, say, unaltered goblins or kobolds in the previous edition (assuming higher levels).

 

[KarinsDad]

I also think you're overemphasizing the importance of a minion. In fact, letting players know which ones are minions emphasizes your point and let "the PCs be heroes." The only purpose for hiding minions is the opposite of that.

How so?

The minions fall just as easily from any damaging power. The PCs are still heroes killing them, regardless of them pulling out the simple At Will every single time vs. the occassonal pulling out the Daily.

Obviously, we have different opinions. I find a LOT of fun in that fight. That gives the players, the HEROES, clear tactical decisions thereby enhancing the players' fun; as opposed to making the players guess in the dark, so to speak, and possibly pissing in the wind. Do you really think it's fun as the DM to watch the PC's piss in the wind?

More so than having the players be bored because the DM spoon feeds them.

When I walk into an encounter as a player, I don't know much. I can see the foes, but do they have poison? Do they cause disease? Should I use my Shield spell on the first attack against me? Should I throw an area effect against many of them, risking the chance that they are not minions and might focus fire on my PC?

This is interesting. This is exciting. This gets my adrenaline pumping.

Knowing the exact roles of monsters defeats the purpose of this. Sure, the big guys rushing in are probably not Controllers, but they could be Soldiers or Brutes or even Skirmishers.

The moment that players know roles is the moment that their decision making process because limited and sometimes even non-existent. Minion is one of the worst offenders here, but many other types have known typical monster role weaknesses.


You claim that giving the players a clear tactical decision is fun, but how so? What makes automatically (or nearly automatically) knowing the best move (and typically just using it) fun? It is the unexpected in the game system that is fun, not the well worn path.

"Oh, that's a Lurker back there. Wizard, hit him with a Will attack (yet again)."



This issue is similar to cross table talk. We have a player in our game who often makes suggestions to the other players across the table most rounds. I find myself telling him to let the other player make his or her own decisions multiple times per night.

Sure, some people like to hear suggestions around the table and then pick the best one. But, there are other players who prefer to make their own decisions and to learn from their mistakes.

But this takes away a lot of the fun. To me, it's fun when the Defender does an unexpected move and the Invoker suddenly has to change tactics because things have changed. Not the Invoker saying 'Hey, I wanted to do xyz, don't do that" and the player of the Defender being expected to do what the player of the Invoker wanted.

Combat should be chaotic, not pre-defined and clear tactical decisions.

 

[Infiniti2000]

More so than having the players be bored because the DM spoon feeds them.

When I walk into an encounter as a player, I don't know much. I can see the foes, but do they have poison? Do they cause disease? Should I use my Shield spell on the first attack against me? Should I throw an area effect against many of them, risking the chance that they are not minions and might focus fire on my PC?

You're exaggerating again, and not even on the same page. How does "minion" directly relate to "poison?" I have no clue how you're jumping to that conclusion except as to throw out a straw man. Stick to the topic at hand and you'll see your argument vanish. The rest of your post is rendered moot by the simple fact that you can't focus on monster role.

 

[KarinsDad]

You're exaggerating again, and not even on the same page. How does "minion" directly relate to "poison?" I have no clue how you're jumping to that conclusion except as to throw out a straw man. Stick to the topic at hand and you'll see your argument vanish. The rest of your post is rendered moot by the simple fact that you can't focus on monster role.

I noticed that you did not answer any of my questions, but merely focused on the fact that I expanded the discussion beyond just your opinion that since I am disagreeing with you, I must be creating strawmen (twice in this thread).

The minion question is no different than any other monster knowledge set of information. The question is where one draws the line. Since role is not mentioned in the Monster Knowledge skill or in the DMG about handing out information, I choose to keep players in the dark about the roles of specific foes.

That's total metagaming information.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I noticed that you did not answer any of my questions, but merely focused on the fact that I expanded the discussion beyond just your opinion that since I am disagreeing with you, I must be creating strawmen (twice in this thread).

The minion question is no different than any other monster knowledge set of information. The question is where one draws the line. Since role is not mentioned in the Monster Knowledge skill or in the DMG about handing out information, I choose to keep players in the dark about the roles of specific foes.

That's total metagaming information.

You can't expand the discussion into an area where we are in complete agreement, because it's a waste of time. I 100% agree that monster role is not allowed information as part of RAW and also agree it's metagaming information. I never said otherwise.

Other than personal choice (which I can respect) I simply disagree with any other assertion that allowing said metagaming knowledge (specifically minion, and I personally don't give out 'skirmisher', etc.) hurts the game. On the contrary, I say it helps the game and have provided some reasoning why.

However, because you asked, I'll try to respond to your questions and point out examples of where I think your arguments are wrong.

"How so?"

PC's can be heroes now by utilizing their powers more effectively. You don't see heroes in any literary or movie sense waste their most powerful abilities on minions. You shouldn't see that happen in D&D either. Of course, I've said as much already.

"More so than having the players be bored because the DM spoon feeds them."

Identifying "minion" is spoon feeding? Aren't you exaggerating?

"I can see the foes, but do they have poison? Do they cause disease?"

These are direct and specific examples of straw men. If they are not, please identify how my posts on minions (and only minions) could ever possibly identify if someone had poison or disease effects.

"Knowing the exact roles of monsters defeats the purpose of this."

Another straw man. I never said this. I was clear in only ever saying minion. Consider it a Boolean. I agree with not allowing skirmisher or solider because then you might better choose powers vs. defense. A minion, however, is FAR different conceptually. It breaks the game mechanics.

"You claim that giving the players a clear tactical decision is fun, but how so?"

Remember that as I've said, you have to focus on minions. So, these decisions we're talking about are with respect to the combat regarding the minions in play. The minions break game mechanics, nothing else does. Therefore, I think the PC's should be privy to that knowledge. Given this information, then PC's can focus their powers better, conserve dailies and possibly encounters, make better decisions, and therefore be more successful, thereby having more fun.

Failing = sucks
Succeeding = fun

Some form of failing might indeed be fun, but in general I think everyone will agree that success is more fun for the players. These two concepts are not strictly black and white, either. Failing might simply mean using way more healing surges than otherwise (e.g. because all the big powers were wasted on minions instead of the high hit point BBEG). Actually, in this way more grind = failing. What I'm recommending is less grind while I see the opposite point of view as more grind. Do you like grind?

"This issue is similar to cross table talk."

Only with respect to minions. If one player decides to shoot a single-target daily at a minion instead of the BBEG, then I would certainly expect the table talk, and I would similarly expect the DM to advice the novice player about better tactical decisions. On the other hand, the player could be experienced and simply decide to unload for story-based reasons (e.g.) because that minion decided to coup de grace his buddy.

 

[keterys]

In general, I agree. If, on the other hand, you wanted to have the cunning master of the thieves' guild disguise himself as a minion, then throw off his cloak and go "AHA!" Then that's another matter entirely ^^

Completely agree with Tai.

Be obvious about minions, in general. They're the chance for the PCs to shine, not the chance for dailies to be wasted.

That said, feel free to let a Lurker lurk amongst the minions.

Anyhow, p26 & p27 DMG on giving out information in both description and game terms so that PCs can make decisions. Further expanded in Dragon #375. Let folks know about minions.

Unless for your gaming group (and not you personally) it's more fun not to know, then definitely don't. Whatever's the most fun for the group, always.

 

[KarinsDad]

PC's can be heroes now by utilizing their powers more effectively. You don't see heroes in any literary or movie sense waste their most powerful abilities on minions. You shouldn't see that happen in D&D either. Of course, I've said as much already.

Actually, one sees the hero trying something that he assumes will work all of the time in books and movies. It's a literary staple. Heroes get it wrong too sometimes.

Identifying "minion" is spoon feeding? Aren't you exaggerating?

Not really.

How does one know (not guess, but know) the fact that this foe is a paper tiger and this foe is not?

Where is the mystery there? Where is the challenge?

Remember that as I've said, you have to focus on minions. So, these decisions we're talking about are with respect to the combat regarding the minions in play. The minions break game mechanics, nothing else does. Therefore, I think the PC's should be privy to that knowledge. Given this information, then PC's can focus their powers better, conserve dailies and possibly encounters, make better decisions, and therefore be more successful, thereby having more fun.

Failing = sucks
Succeeding = fun

Killing the foe with a Daily = failing and Killing the foe with an At Will = success???

That's your argument. Being efficient = success = fun. Being non-efficient = failure = not fun.

And the entire game system is game mechanics. The Battle Rage Vigor Fighter is not putting up a visible force field that foes can see, he is adding Temporary Hit Points. But NPCs should not know about temporary hit points any more than PCs should know about minions.

Some form of failing might indeed be fun, but in general I think everyone will agree that success is more fun for the players. These two concepts are not strictly black and white, either. Failing might simply mean using way more healing surges than otherwise (e.g. because all the big powers were wasted on minions instead of the high hit point BBEG). Actually, in this way more grind = failing. What I'm recommending is less grind while I see the opposite point of view as more grind. Do you like grind?

Adding a strawman of your own aren't you? You are extrapolating that being less efficient = grind.

But then, that would lead one to believe that not spotting the trap leads to more grind, having a choice of 3 paths to go and choosing the wrong one leads to more grind, etc.


Why would you want to play a game where you tell the player information that the PC would not know?

The PC doesn't know what a minion is. He just knows that he sometimes gets lucky and wipes a foe out with a single blow. Other times, the foe is lucky or skillful or whatever and the battle is more drawn out.


I have no problem handing out information that the PC should know to players. I just have a problem handing out information that the PC should NOT know to players. Metagaming knowledge is not information that the PC should know.

 

[Trebor62]

The Dragon article in #375 suggest the house rule of refunding dailies wasted on minions where an At Will power would do, as a compromise in games where the DM kepts minions secret.