Most overpowered / underpowered ?

[Silverwave]

So, it's been a time 4th is out, we had plenty of time to try most classes.
Now, what class do you feel is been overpowered, wich one is underpowered?
And mostly, why do you feel this way?


For my part.


Overpowered : Rogue.

There's one in the party since about 5 sessions and we all feel at the table he's overpowered. He got very good attack bonus and bashing a hell lot of damage (his minimum damage is my maximum damage...). Even his at-will (sly flourish) do more damage than most of the dailies of other chatacters.

And even if you think he have to target only one creature at a time, he got blinding barrage which is better than the wizard's (the supposed only controler) dailies (even lvl 3 AND lvl 5 dailies too).

Yes, he's a striker, but compared to other strikers, he's no match !


Underpowered : Ranger.
He's supposed to be a striker, but he's doing less damage than the average fighter, have lesser defences and can't stand out toe-to-toe with most of the soldiers or brutes. He have not-so-good powers, don't have the versatility of the Warlock, and just can't stand compared to the rogue.


The 2nd underpowered is the wizzard.

He's the only controler, but honestly, don't control much.
His powers don't do much damage, and the only one who have sort-of a controling effect is icy rays (who immobilise).
The dailies don't have a "that" big radius (even fireball at lvl 5 have the same area of the lvl 1 daily of the rogue). But then, I've only seen a wizard with mostly "attack" powers and not the web or sleep kind of power and he's staff wizard, maybe the other focuses controls more ?

 

[Fede]

(First post! Hello everybody!)

Sorry if i sound rude, but I think that you have read some of the powers wrong. The fireball is "burst 3", while the barrage is "blast 3". That means that the fireball covers a 7x7 squares area, while the barrage is only a 3x3 area.

In my experience, the classes are about on par with each other, the differences in power i found are more between optimized and unoptimized characters (especially concerning the choice of stats and powers) than characters of one particular class.

 

[Caliban]

Blinding Barrage is a blast 3, which will hit 9 squares adjacent to the rogue.

Fireball is a burst 3, which will cover 49 squares within 20 squares of the wizard. It's just a little bigger.

You do have a point with the wizard though. Their at will and lower level powers don't have much "control", and most people make the mistake of taking all the most damaging powers, and then being disappointed when they can't keep up with the strikers in damage.

You can be more of a controller if you build the character for it though. Give him a decent wisdom and use Thunderwave or Cloud of Daggers. Scorching Burst is one of the best at wills - ranged area damage, great for minions and opponents with concealment.

Using the powers that have been added from dragon magazine, you get some more control options.

Illusionary Ambush targets will and give them a -2 on attack rolls, for example.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Some feature or even powers seem dubious (Battlerager...) but classes overall are very balanced so far, IMO.

The rogue is not overpowered in my experience. I'm not sure what you mean by 'his minimum is my maximum', I'd have to see numbers. I'm guessing it involves sly flourish but sill, when you consider all the facts, it isn't overpowered nor even typically the most damaging at-will (Archer ranger using Twin Strike does more damage).

Typically the rogue does a high damage output but it's roughly comparable to the archer ranger and he has less fun side-effect than the warlock.

With backstabber he has a nifty +2d8 which is better than other strikers but he needs to work for his extra-damage which the other strikers don't have to do. Plus, his base damage die is low (usually a d4 to d8) compared to other strikers (Archer use D10 or D12). It shows, expecially when there is a multiplier; 3d4+2d8 vs 3d10+1d8...

No question he can do much damage, but I don't see other strikers becoming jealous.

I have no experience with the melee ranger so I'll abstain. I'd just point out that he benefits very much from fighting side by side with a defender.

Blinding barrage isn't all that. I mean, as a rogue ability it is very cool because it is one of the very few area effect he can do but it's a gross exageration to say it's better than the wizard's daily in term of area damage. As area effect go, it is just a bit more useful then thunderwave, the wizard at will, and not nearly as powerful as freezing cloud for level 1 area damage (And let's not forget flaming sphere for overall damage in large melees!).

Wizard, well played, are very powerful. My combat mage does the most total damage in at least 50% of every fights; basically he shines when there are a lots of monsters on the map. The rest of the time he focuses on his hindering powers.

Most powerful? Maybe the tactical warlord, in the right party. The increase in damage output he produces may be too subtle for some to notice but trust me, it is very subtstantial. I wouldn't go as far as saying he's broken, but he can probably transform more tough fight into walk in the park than any other classes.

 

[MrAlgothi]

In my experience, the classes are about on par with each other, the differences in power i found are more between optimized and unoptimized characters (especially concerning the choice of stats and powers) than characters of one particular class.

I agree, these comparisons are difficult without knowing the characters in question. I think comparing an Optimized Rogue to an Unoptimized Ranger is the problem we are seeing in the Original post.

To break down the Rogue vs Ranger issue, popular opinion holds the Two Weapon Ranger far above the Rogue in terms of damage in the paragon tier forward. The ranger will be more consistent in hitting and gaining his extra damage bonus due to multiple attacks, in addition he will get to add his static multipliers for each hit. When built correctly, this amounts to huge total damage over the encounter.

The Rogue on the other hand, of which I have played from 1st to 14th lvl, can gain a rather large bonus to hit that is difficult for most classes to obtain. While his extra bonus damage is higher then the Rangers, a rogue must work harder to get it. The rogue is also limited to smaller Weapon Dice, maxing out at D8s without using Oversize racial abilities. The rogue does benefit from better effects on his attack, which I feel balances the class nicely.

Now for my opinions, I think in the Striker role the Warlock is a bit low on the totem pole, though I fully expect this to shift up a bit once Arcane Power hits the shelf. In the defender role I feel the paladin is a bit lower then normal, Id like to see something help them out in the mark department, perhaps a feat to increase the attack penalty to -4 should something ignore their challenge. Again, this may change when Divine Power is release.

 

[Mengu]

Power is all relative really. Yes a rogue can do somewhere in the neighborhood of 3d8+7'ish damage at level 1 with an at-will power, which may be higher than numerous daily powers. But how often does the rogue get slapped around in combat? The person who went down most frequently (and eventually died) in my game was the rogue.

And calling the Ranger weak is preposterous if you ask our group. He is just as threatening as the rogue, and much more survivable focusing on range.

A lot of this perception of strength and weakness I think comes from optimized builds playing alongside poor builds, or experienced players alongside inexperienced players, or simply players with different styles.

There are features and powers that may be at the extreme ends of the power curve, but it's difficult to quantify any class as weak or strong. However, some are better at their role than others. For instance I feel both previewed PHB2 controller classes feel better and more enjoyable to play, than the wizard.

 

[Van der Hoorn]

Underpowered : Ranger.
He's supposed to be a striker, but he's doing less damage than the average fighter, have lesser defences and can't stand out toe-to-toe with most of the soldiers or brutes. He have not-so-good powers, don't have the versatility of the Warlock, and just can't stand compared to the rogue.

I have to disagree here. We play with a two-weapon ranger and it does the most damage of all characters. I would say it is one of the most powerful classes there is.

Underpowered classes can come in variety, but it always depends on the other PCs. It also depends on the race, feats and combination of powers. If you do not choose the right ones, the character will never work and thus be underpowered.

 

[Herschel]

Overpowered : Rogue.
Underpowered : Ranger.

My experience has been the opposite. In the group I play most as a PC in, if I'm not on my game (Assault Swordmage), the Rogue is not very good. The Dragonborn Fighter and I MUST play with the Rogue to make sure he gets Combat Advantage to make him pump out the damage.

In DMing RPGA events, Archer Rangers have consistently put out the most damage.

In playing, Melee Ranger is pretty decent but generally behind the other two in raw damage or durability. He's a good middle ground.

The Rogue simply isn't all that powerful on his own. Tactics with other players make the rogue, in my opinion. Melee Defenders are a must because he simply doesn't have the durability to take a lot of hits.

 

[Rashak Mani]

I find the Paladin a bit underpowered compared to the overpowered Fighter.

The Wizard seems very good... my Human Wizard easily does more damage output than either of the strikers.

 

[Scarface6174]

A Wizard with thunderwave and an area effect spell up can make for awesome damage to enemies. Drop Freezing Cloud on a group of baddies. Watch them come towards you. Thunderwave them back into the cloud before the end of your next turn. That's at least 4 dice of damage against multiple enemies!

I would say that the Wizard is FAR from the most underpowered.

Overpowered...... A rogue can most definitely do the most damage, but when he's out of surges for the day, my barbarian is still tickin' and still wackin' away at the enemy.

Underpowered...... Swordmage? We have one in our group and he does OK, but his charater never has never really shined..... Mabye in one session that I missed I think, but overall, not the best out there IMHO.