Mystic Theurge too good or not?

[James McMurray]

I would just like to point out that the test scenario is even further invalidated by the change to Tenser's Transformation, which now gives a BAB equal to your character level, and thus cannot stack with Divine Power.

 

[LokiDR]

I would just like to point out that the test scenario is even further invalidated by the change to Tenser's Transformation, which now gives a BAB equal to your character level, and thus cannot stack with Divine Power.

This has not detered us. I hope to one day soon see a mystic thurge with every conceivable precast in the annals of Smackdown history.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

One might also point out that the Theurge was compared to a wizard using time stop and meteor swarm. Well he ought to--he's an 18th level character. If he isn't comparable to a top flight 18th level wizard after taking two prestige classes, he's obviously an average or substandard character.

I would just like to point out that the test scenario is even further invalidated by the change to Tenser's Transformation, which now gives a BAB equal to your character level, and thus cannot stack with Divine Power.

 

[Snipehunt]

IMO, if you limit MT to core rules, it's pretty average at best. If you let persistent spell and non-core PrC's be used by a MT, you're asking for trouble, b/c it multiplies whatever brokenness those things had for straight casters.

Persistent spell, in particular, is a killer w/ the MT. The fixed range arcane spells + fixed range cleric spells at low levels let you do a lot of damage w/ the 5th and 6th level slots, that normally aren't that much use to 18th level casters.


Also, tenser's can be really devastating for the MT. Cont (heal), cont (righteous might), cont (divine power), triggered correctly, let the MT get a lot of bang out of one round of casting. 3.5 fixes the Divine Power/Tenser's issue, IIRC - now BAB just equals caster level for both.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Persistent spell, in particular, is a killer w/ the MT. The fixed range arcane spells + fixed range cleric spells at low levels let you do a lot of damage w/ the 5th and 6th level slots, that normally aren't that much use to 18th level casters.

Persistent Fear!

Kneel before Zod!

-Hyp.

 

[Cedric]

I'm currently in the process of converting my 1st edition elven cleric/magic-user to 3.0.

Thankfully my GM is allowing the MT, otherwise I would be pretty screwed. In 3.0 my character is going to be 11th level, so 3/3/5 (cleric/wizard/mt).

I am having a hard time picking my feats actually. I mean, at 11th level I only have 4 feats. Persistent spell is useless to me, I can't persist anything yet, except for 0-level spells.

Been thinking that maybe Spell Mastery, Signature Spell would be nice, but what to use as my signature spell? heh...dispel magic is on both lists, but that's kind of pointless.

Was thinking of going with improved init, improved counterspell, reactive counterspell...but nah, I just don't like this option.

Honestly, the feat selection for my MT is bugging the crud out of me.

Cedric

 

[DwarvenBrew]

Personally, I think the MT is way underpowered until the mid to high teens. As others have pointed out, lagging behind straight casters in DCs and overall power (I tend to think that spellcasters' power curve is an accelerating one) is nothing to scoff at.

Interestingly, in a Q&A on the Wizards Board, Andy Collins said that because the MT is not a spellcasting class in and of itself, it will NOT stack with any other spellcasting PrC (which makes me wonder if any spellcasting PrCs are intended to be able to stack). So, if you went Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT 10/Prc 4+, you would just get a bunch more level 3+ spells, not 8+ spells.

I also think that the usefullness of a MT declines because you are trying to max two scores (INT and WIS) instead of one of them. Therefore, your primary spellcasting (and DC) stat will be behind a straight caster.

It is a nice PrC is you already have a straight Cleric and Wizard in the largish party though, as long as the MT can act as the swiss army knife.

 

[James McMurray]

I think that by not stacking he meant that you couldn't choose MT as your class to gain a level of spellcasting in, not that you can't get more levels in other classes. Its just a clarification to say "no, you can't get higher caster level in wizard and cleric by taking MT and then another prestige class".

 

[Pax]

I think that by not stacking he meant that you couldn't choose MT as your class to gain a level of spellcasting in, not that you can't get more levels in other classes. Its just a clarification to say "no, you can't get higher caster level in wizard and cleric by taking MT and then another prestige class".

I have to agree 100%, here.

You cannot add levels to MT, but if MT and another PrC add levels to (say) Wizard, then THAT stacks.

IOW, if you pick up Wizard(3)/Claric(3)/Mystic Theurge(10)/Archmage(4) ... you cannot use your Archmage "+1 spellcaster level" to increase the effects of MT. You will cast spells as a 13th level Cleric (3+10) and a 17th level Wizard (3+10+4). NOT as 17th level in each (3+10+4 apiece).

 

[reapersaurus]

I'm sure this has been said many times, but I'll add mine:

I think the Mystic Theurge is a very bad idea - harkening back purely to 1E cleric/mage multiclass cheese.

Spellcasters (and magic) are powerful enough overall - this is a step in the WRONG direction.