Naeronite relationship with dragons/chromatic dragons
Northman
First Post
Yeah, it was a product of the way we created gods and not having anyone in charge. 
It produced lots of cool stuff, but had problems too. So many greater gods is one of them.
Okay, so to make Nearon fit the nitch he already has, we are presenting three changes:
1. Nearon did in fact change alignment from Evil to Neutral
2. Nearon is god of neutral dragons not evil dragons
3. Nearon does not seek the destruction of good dragons
I believe this should also remove him from the Dominator class of gods. It would avoid confusion.
It produced lots of cool stuff, but had problems too. So many greater gods is one of them.Okay, so to make Nearon fit the nitch he already has, we are presenting three changes:
1. Nearon did in fact change alignment from Evil to Neutral
2. Nearon is god of neutral dragons not evil dragons
3. Nearon does not seek the destruction of good dragons
I believe this should also remove him from the Dominator class of gods. It would avoid confusion.
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Silverglass
Registered User
Northman said:Yeah, it was a product of the way we created gods and not having anyone in charge.
Okay, so to make Nearon fit the nitch he already has, we are presenting three changes:
1. Nearon did in fact change alignment from Evil to Neutral
2. Nearon is god of neutral dragons not evil dragons
3. Nearon does not seek the destruction of good dragons
I believe this should also remove him from the Dominator class of gods. It would avoid confusion.
1. Nearon certainly became less evil and destructive when he voluntarily foreswore the Destruction domain. Whether he started out LE or LN with strong evil tendencies is a matter for history. The description of Naeron is for the Age of Kings when he should be classed as LN (with slight evil tendencies).
2. Nearon can remain the Deity of Neutral and some Evil Dragons. Only the LE dragons (blue and green) would actually worship him as Clerics and by the rules they can except that this will of course be very rare. The others would not but according to D&D (and something that we haven't changed) a CE creature can worship a LN god, they just can't be a cleric, even though this would again be rare. After all a LE fighter could have any evil deity as their patron.
3. Naeron certainly does not seek the destruction of the Good dragons, there is an emnity between Naeron and Trandim on the deific playing field but no "kill them all" instructions in Naeron's dogmas. If a Good dragon isn't interferring then a LN Naeronite will be happy to leave well enough alone. Of course you do need to separate the killing of Good dragons by evil beings for a mortal purpose and a divine instruction to do so.
I think I need to put together something that hints at the complexity of the relationships between Lizardlike creatures (lizardfolk, kobolds, troglodytes, kuo-toa), neutral and evil dragons and the deity that created them.
The thing is that a LN deity can, by the rules have LG and LE clerics and can certainly count those alignments among its worshippers. The only way to can ever rationalise this is that you tend to have separate churches that favour some interpretations over others when it comes to dogma. After all Galvar has LG and LN nations following him. And he may certainly have NG and N dwarven worshippers.
And we have to encompass the fact that some deities are worshipped by creatures that do not share the same alignments or ethos's of their worshippers due to our earlier decision that we would not create the many monster deities but rather leave these as a mix of minor powers and aspects of our pantheon that are worshipped by other names. Unless we want to pin this down in a published list we will have to deal with some stranger combinations. Perhaps the CE dragons worship the Naeron of the Age of the Gods and the LE ones worship the Naeron of the Age of Kings.
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Northman
First Post
There are other evil gods for evil dragons to worship.
I personally have always seen the rule about clerics serving gods of a different alignment as a flaw in the D&D 3.0/3.5 system. It doesn't make any sense. But that's neither here nor there right now.
Mainly we just need to have it say "neutral" dragons in his portfolio. A few evil dragons can worship him, no biggie. But he would be the god of neutral dragons officially, not evil dragons. And he wouldn't seek the destruction of good dragons as it now says.
We just have to make sure its clear. If we're good on this now, I can inform my player the new aspect of his god so we can adjust.
I personally have always seen the rule about clerics serving gods of a different alignment as a flaw in the D&D 3.0/3.5 system. It doesn't make any sense. But that's neither here nor there right now.
Mainly we just need to have it say "neutral" dragons in his portfolio. A few evil dragons can worship him, no biggie. But he would be the god of neutral dragons officially, not evil dragons. And he wouldn't seek the destruction of good dragons as it now says.
We just have to make sure its clear. If we're good on this now, I can inform my player the new aspect of his god so we can adjust.
Silverglass
Registered User
Of course one thing that I realised is that Chromatic Dragons can't be clerics except under extremely unusual circumstances so some of the points are a bit moot.
I also realised that it is Trandim who fuels the war between Good and Evil dragons, the good dragons were created specifically to destroy the evil ones. So I am happy for Naeron to hate Trandoi
I would prefer to change Naeron to having "Chromatic Dragons" among his worshippers and Trandim having "Metallic Dragons" as his worshippers because all that you are showing in that list is a likely deity for such a being to worship. The worshippers list is not, and never has been, a rule about who would worship a deity, it just provides a guide as to the common types of worshippers of a deity.
There is no restriction that prevents a Lizardfolk worshipping Brand or a Human worshipping or a Red Dragon worshipping Lunakav.
I will work on an update to the deities entry and post it here.
I also realised that it is Trandim who fuels the war between Good and Evil dragons, the good dragons were created specifically to destroy the evil ones. So I am happy for Naeron to hate Trandoi
I would prefer to change Naeron to having "Chromatic Dragons" among his worshippers and Trandim having "Metallic Dragons" as his worshippers because all that you are showing in that list is a likely deity for such a being to worship. The worshippers list is not, and never has been, a rule about who would worship a deity, it just provides a guide as to the common types of worshippers of a deity.
There is no restriction that prevents a Lizardfolk worshipping Brand or a Human worshipping or a Red Dragon worshipping Lunakav.
I will work on an update to the deities entry and post it here.
Silverglass
Registered User
Naeron
The Dark Dragon, The Wyrm of the Underworld, The Serpent of Death, The Keeper of Knowledge
Greater Deity
Symbol: A dragons skull with a blood red ruby eye
Home Plane: The Underworld
Alignment: Lawful Neutral
Portfolio: Reptiles, Knowledge, The Underworld, Death
Worshippers: Chromatic Dragons, Knowledge Seekers, Reptiles, Necromancers
Cleric Alignments: LG, LN, LE, N
Domains: Death, Knowledge, Saurian, War
Favored Weapon: Piercing Claw (Shortspear)
Nearon is the wyrm of the underworld, a dragon arisen from the mists of time to care for those who have passed on and to collect their knowledge for those who may need it and can pay the price, he is an immense black wyrm, except that he has no muscle or flesh, he is purely a skeleton in the form of those creatures he created. He is followed by those who are seek to find or preserve knowledge, chromatic dragons honouring their creator, most forms of intelligent reptiles or those who simply wish to worship or understand the realm of the dead, whether clerics or Necromancers.
History and Relationships
Naeron’s only true relationships are those which are maintained against Trandim and Beher. He and Trandim are locked in a perpetual war which will only end when the threat of the metallic Dragons is removed and Naeron’s children once again can roam the skies freely. This antagonistic relationship does not, on the whole, involve Naeron’s non-draconic worshippers, between these worshippers and the metallic Dragons conditions of mutual distrust and wariness are more common that outright hostility. Beher’s usurpation of part of the Underworld has earned him the emnity of Naeron who awaits with eternal patience the day when Beher attempts to leave his realm. Naeron has little to do with the other gods, he maintains his mastery of the Underworld and waits patiently to garner all the knowledge of the world.
Naeron’s relationships with the other deities of Aerde is more fluid. As a rule he opposes the aims of the destroyer and dominator gods but also wishes to prevent the good and nature deities achieving the upper hand.
Dogma
All life exists for a brief moment to those in the highest positions, that of the gods, where a mortal life passes in the blink of an eye. Thus the god of the land of death is loneliest of all, knowing much from the passage of beings through the underworld, where all mortals must eventually pass, learning knowledge that many covet, but few understand. As such he knows all that mortal men have known, yet this does not fill the emptiness so he created races in his own image, ones that would survive for a noticable part of his eternity, these are the chromatic dragons, yet his creations were tainted by their creation at the hands of a dead master, given life and the power to destroy, but by a master who did not truly understand the concepts of mortality. Thus many of them have chosen a darker and more violent path and now only acknowledge Naeron as their creator and worship no higher cause than their own advancement. Although many of Naeron’s woshippers follow those parts of his teachings that suit their own ethos few can ever come to truly understand their God.
The religion of Naeron primarily exists to gather knowledge and to strengthen and defend Naeron's worshippers. They also know that at an unknown time in the future there will be an apocalyptic event that will involve the ban against the Gods returning to Aerde being broken and some or all of the dominator and destroyer deities will make a final play for control of all of Aerde. Once this happens the faithful will take up arms and fight to ensure that it is Naeron and his allies who are victorious and who will remake the world so that from the death of the Age of Kings come the birth of a new age.
In the Age of Kings quiet persuasion is the way that the Church of Naeron spreads its message, it is reasonably tolerant in public of most of the religions, except Trandim and Beher, although the other dominator/destroyer deities are held in low esteem and the church works to weaken their power and influence whenever it can.
Clergy and Temples
Clerics of Naeron are mainly collectors of knowledge, and the keepers of the dead. They also function as a conduit for Nearon’s will and desires. The primary duties of the priesthood of Naeron are to gather all mortal knowledge and to maintain the strength and purity of Naeron’s faithful in preparation for times of conflict.
In areas where the worship of Naeron are strong the temples wield both spiritual and limited temporal power, in other areas temples and shrines are often hidden or disguised, their true nature known only to the faithful.
Temples of Naeron are often represented aboveground only by a small complex containing the residences of those who serve the temple, and for major temples the barracks and training areas of the temple guards. The actual areas of worship are underground to represent the connection with the Underworld. Most large temples maintain a respectable library, parts of which can be used by the lay membership of the temple.
Chromatic Dragons and their Creator
Although the Chromatic Dragons revere Naeron as their creator and acknowledge their kinship with his other children their very nature, arising from the energies used in their creation tainted as they were by death and destruction, has led most chromatic dragons away from their creator and onto the path to evil. In Aerde most Chromatic Dragons conform to the normal stereotypes of being proud, aggressive, territorial and self-centred and among the Chaotic Evil dragons a proportion worship other evil deities more suited to their outlook. This is not a universal rule and in Aerde there are rare exceptions of such Chromatic Dragons being of Neutral alignments and actively worshiping Naeron and following his teachings more closely.
When worshippers of Naeron and Chromatic Dragons encounter each other it is unwise for either side to rely solely on a distant kinship as a basis for negotiations. Relationships will more normally develop on the in light of the relative power of the parties involved, so in areas where the worshippers of Naeron wield considerable temporal power both sides tend to respect the agreed territorial boundaries and can coexist in relative peace, in the wilderness no such protection can be guaranteed.
edited after input from Northman
The Dark Dragon, The Wyrm of the Underworld, The Serpent of Death, The Keeper of Knowledge
Greater Deity
Symbol: A dragons skull with a blood red ruby eye
Home Plane: The Underworld
Alignment: Lawful Neutral
Portfolio: Reptiles, Knowledge, The Underworld, Death
Worshippers: Chromatic Dragons, Knowledge Seekers, Reptiles, Necromancers
Cleric Alignments: LG, LN, LE, N
Domains: Death, Knowledge, Saurian, War
Favored Weapon: Piercing Claw (Shortspear)
Nearon is the wyrm of the underworld, a dragon arisen from the mists of time to care for those who have passed on and to collect their knowledge for those who may need it and can pay the price, he is an immense black wyrm, except that he has no muscle or flesh, he is purely a skeleton in the form of those creatures he created. He is followed by those who are seek to find or preserve knowledge, chromatic dragons honouring their creator, most forms of intelligent reptiles or those who simply wish to worship or understand the realm of the dead, whether clerics or Necromancers.
History and Relationships
Naeron’s only true relationships are those which are maintained against Trandim and Beher. He and Trandim are locked in a perpetual war which will only end when the threat of the metallic Dragons is removed and Naeron’s children once again can roam the skies freely. This antagonistic relationship does not, on the whole, involve Naeron’s non-draconic worshippers, between these worshippers and the metallic Dragons conditions of mutual distrust and wariness are more common that outright hostility. Beher’s usurpation of part of the Underworld has earned him the emnity of Naeron who awaits with eternal patience the day when Beher attempts to leave his realm. Naeron has little to do with the other gods, he maintains his mastery of the Underworld and waits patiently to garner all the knowledge of the world.
Naeron’s relationships with the other deities of Aerde is more fluid. As a rule he opposes the aims of the destroyer and dominator gods but also wishes to prevent the good and nature deities achieving the upper hand.
Dogma
All life exists for a brief moment to those in the highest positions, that of the gods, where a mortal life passes in the blink of an eye. Thus the god of the land of death is loneliest of all, knowing much from the passage of beings through the underworld, where all mortals must eventually pass, learning knowledge that many covet, but few understand. As such he knows all that mortal men have known, yet this does not fill the emptiness so he created races in his own image, ones that would survive for a noticable part of his eternity, these are the chromatic dragons, yet his creations were tainted by their creation at the hands of a dead master, given life and the power to destroy, but by a master who did not truly understand the concepts of mortality. Thus many of them have chosen a darker and more violent path and now only acknowledge Naeron as their creator and worship no higher cause than their own advancement. Although many of Naeron’s woshippers follow those parts of his teachings that suit their own ethos few can ever come to truly understand their God.
The religion of Naeron primarily exists to gather knowledge and to strengthen and defend Naeron's worshippers. They also know that at an unknown time in the future there will be an apocalyptic event that will involve the ban against the Gods returning to Aerde being broken and some or all of the dominator and destroyer deities will make a final play for control of all of Aerde. Once this happens the faithful will take up arms and fight to ensure that it is Naeron and his allies who are victorious and who will remake the world so that from the death of the Age of Kings come the birth of a new age.
In the Age of Kings quiet persuasion is the way that the Church of Naeron spreads its message, it is reasonably tolerant in public of most of the religions, except Trandim and Beher, although the other dominator/destroyer deities are held in low esteem and the church works to weaken their power and influence whenever it can.
Clergy and Temples
Clerics of Naeron are mainly collectors of knowledge, and the keepers of the dead. They also function as a conduit for Nearon’s will and desires. The primary duties of the priesthood of Naeron are to gather all mortal knowledge and to maintain the strength and purity of Naeron’s faithful in preparation for times of conflict.
In areas where the worship of Naeron are strong the temples wield both spiritual and limited temporal power, in other areas temples and shrines are often hidden or disguised, their true nature known only to the faithful.
Temples of Naeron are often represented aboveground only by a small complex containing the residences of those who serve the temple, and for major temples the barracks and training areas of the temple guards. The actual areas of worship are underground to represent the connection with the Underworld. Most large temples maintain a respectable library, parts of which can be used by the lay membership of the temple.
Chromatic Dragons and their Creator
Although the Chromatic Dragons revere Naeron as their creator and acknowledge their kinship with his other children their very nature, arising from the energies used in their creation tainted as they were by death and destruction, has led most chromatic dragons away from their creator and onto the path to evil. In Aerde most Chromatic Dragons conform to the normal stereotypes of being proud, aggressive, territorial and self-centred and among the Chaotic Evil dragons a proportion worship other evil deities more suited to their outlook. This is not a universal rule and in Aerde there are rare exceptions of such Chromatic Dragons being of Neutral alignments and actively worshiping Naeron and following his teachings more closely.
When worshippers of Naeron and Chromatic Dragons encounter each other it is unwise for either side to rely solely on a distant kinship as a basis for negotiations. Relationships will more normally develop on the in light of the relative power of the parties involved, so in areas where the worshippers of Naeron wield considerable temporal power both sides tend to respect the agreed territorial boundaries and can coexist in relative peace, in the wilderness no such protection can be guaranteed.
edited after input from Northman
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Northman
First Post
Good job getting right on this. If we could all work that quickly...
A couple of observations:
If Chromatic (evil) dragons rarely worship Nearon then why are they listed under worshipers? Why not neutral dragons? Or... actually, as I look in the MM, the 3.5 MM doesn't have any neutral dragons listed. Hmmm.
I am curious why you want to put so much about dragons in Nearon's write up.
Also, the mention of chromatic dragons also being neutral... We dont' want to mess with the ultimate staple of D&D do we? Neutral black dragons? Druidlike reds? Let's not mettle with that sacred cow.
A couple of observations:
If Chromatic (evil) dragons rarely worship Nearon then why are they listed under worshipers? Why not neutral dragons? Or... actually, as I look in the MM, the 3.5 MM doesn't have any neutral dragons listed. Hmmm.
I am curious why you want to put so much about dragons in Nearon's write up.
Also, the mention of chromatic dragons also being neutral... We dont' want to mess with the ultimate staple of D&D do we? Neutral black dragons? Druidlike reds? Let's not mettle with that sacred cow.
Silverglass
Registered User
Northman said:Good job getting right on this. If we could all work that quickly...
A couple of observations:
If Chromatic (evil) dragons rarely worship Nearon then why are they listed under worshipers? Why not neutral dragons? Or... actually, as I look in the MM, the 3.5 MM doesn't have any neutral dragons listed. Hmmm.
I am curious why you want to put so much about dragons in Nearon's write up.
Also, the mention of chromatic dragons also being neutral... We dont' want to mess with the ultimate staple of D&D do we? Neutral black dragons? Druidlike reds? Let's not mettle with that sacred cow.
Yes there are no neutral dragons in the MM but I would guess that the Draconomicon may have some if we ever include that book. And if we go epic I think the Prismatic and Force dragons are Neutral.
The worshippers list can only ever be a guide. Saying Chromatic Dragons there should only be taken to mean that Chromatic Dragons worshipping Naeron is a valid choice under the right circumstances just as Beher is a valid choice, whereas a CE Red Dragon worshipping Adenan would not be in any way valid.
Being on the list does not enforce a rule that they all must worship Naeron. In the same way those who seek knowledge may worship Naeron but other deities such as Os and Lunakav would be equally valid choices for differing alignments.
I think there needs to be a specific mention of Chromatic dragons because Naeron is mentioned as their creator so that relationship needs to be clarified (true I think in light of the questions we have had). I agree that we don't want to meddle with the sacred cow too much but by the core rules you can have a N Black Dragon, 3.5 alignments, even the "Always", specifically say that there can be exceptions. But I will add "rare" to that sentence to make it clear that this talks about these exceptions.
Of course Green and Blue Dragons being Always LE means that the normal dragon of these colours can be a Cleric of Naeron. So you might say that Blue and Green dragons usually worship Naeron and can gain cleric levels (not that dragons advance by character class anuway) and the other chromatic dragons may (say about 50% of them) worship Naeron but only the exceptional ones of LE, LN or N alignment may become clerics (say about 5%, mostly being LE). But I dislike putting hard percentages on paper for these things as later changes may contradict this.
