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New Excerpts - Tome of Battle & Dragons of Faerun
- Thread starter gribble
- Start date
I'm not going to pass judgment from one excerpt, I have long had this book pre-ordered so I will examine it when I get it. A couple of thoughts on the Warblade, Stances, and Maneuvers.
I am a little dismayed that Maneuvers are in essense infinitely usuable, even if you read the recharge rules as "swift action plus single attack action", it is not much of a downside.
Combat Rites from AE use a more standard Spell Slotting system for the Rites, with uses per order of right increasing as level increases. On the surface that seems more balanced.
The Warblade as written seems to take the place of the Barbarian.
It has the same HD, BAB, Base Saving Throws, and Skill Points. The skill list of a Warblade is arguably less valuable than Barbarian, the lack of Spot and Listen the Warblade into the same boat as the Fighter. Balance and Diplomacy might make up for that, and the fact that most Warblades will probably have a decent (14) INT score probably makes it a wash.
Uncanny Dodge is the same. The bonus Feats are from a very small and very specialized list. The Warblade despite being able to act a a Fighter = Warblade level -2 is never going to rival a Fighter in acquiring those nifty PHB II feats, Warblade only gets the base number of feats, and his Fighter emulation level is going to throw off when he can use the feats he gets for the more spiffy feats.
Battle Skill, Battle Mastery, Battle Ardor etc are probably equal or slightly greater in power to Rage and Damage Resistance, though many of the Warblades class abillities are very situational in nature, and require Feats and abillity scores to get the most out of them, and many of the Warblade abillities are not gained to very late in the class progression.
Of course on top of this you add the Stances and Manuevers, which I would guess are more powerful than Fast Movement and Trap Sense.
The Warblade suffers from MAD. Good Strength and Intelligence are a must. The d12 HD, Good Fort Saves, and Int Bonus to Reflex saves as on progresses means you can stick with average Con and Dex scores. In a low point buy, you could probably survive with Con as 10, a 12 Dex is probably the real minimum to take advantage of the Int Bonus to AOO, and 14 is preferable.
Going the Human Warblade 1 route , using the above as the Abillity score distribution guide I would be tempted to take Insightful Reflexs, (for even more Reflex save fun), and Heavy Armor Proficiency, the class abillities really encourage you to mix it up in melee with flanking and being able to threaten as many people with AOO. Combat Reflexs, Weapon Specialization (and thus Weapon Focus), Mobility (and thus Dodge), seem to be very logical feat choices.
Until I see the power level of the Stances and Maneuvers, I can not make a judgement, but on the surface of things, w/out Stances and Maneuvers, it seems balanced with the Barbarian, and given the situational nature of many of its Class abillities perhaps a bit weaker, as the Barbarian has more control over when it can unleash the pain, (Rage, Power Attack, 2 Handed Weapon and High Strength and Con). Of course Stances and Maneuvers are going to be the kicker...I predict a very strong class indeed. Me thinks my new House rule is going to give Fighter 2 free Skill slots fillable by any skill the player choses to go on the Fighter list, and possibly an extra skill point to boot.
I am a little dismayed that Maneuvers are in essense infinitely usuable, even if you read the recharge rules as "swift action plus single attack action", it is not much of a downside.
Combat Rites from AE use a more standard Spell Slotting system for the Rites, with uses per order of right increasing as level increases. On the surface that seems more balanced.
The Warblade as written seems to take the place of the Barbarian.
It has the same HD, BAB, Base Saving Throws, and Skill Points. The skill list of a Warblade is arguably less valuable than Barbarian, the lack of Spot and Listen the Warblade into the same boat as the Fighter. Balance and Diplomacy might make up for that, and the fact that most Warblades will probably have a decent (14) INT score probably makes it a wash.
Uncanny Dodge is the same. The bonus Feats are from a very small and very specialized list. The Warblade despite being able to act a a Fighter = Warblade level -2 is never going to rival a Fighter in acquiring those nifty PHB II feats, Warblade only gets the base number of feats, and his Fighter emulation level is going to throw off when he can use the feats he gets for the more spiffy feats.
Battle Skill, Battle Mastery, Battle Ardor etc are probably equal or slightly greater in power to Rage and Damage Resistance, though many of the Warblades class abillities are very situational in nature, and require Feats and abillity scores to get the most out of them, and many of the Warblade abillities are not gained to very late in the class progression.
Of course on top of this you add the Stances and Manuevers, which I would guess are more powerful than Fast Movement and Trap Sense.
The Warblade suffers from MAD. Good Strength and Intelligence are a must. The d12 HD, Good Fort Saves, and Int Bonus to Reflex saves as on progresses means you can stick with average Con and Dex scores. In a low point buy, you could probably survive with Con as 10, a 12 Dex is probably the real minimum to take advantage of the Int Bonus to AOO, and 14 is preferable.
Going the Human Warblade 1 route , using the above as the Abillity score distribution guide I would be tempted to take Insightful Reflexs, (for even more Reflex save fun), and Heavy Armor Proficiency, the class abillities really encourage you to mix it up in melee with flanking and being able to threaten as many people with AOO. Combat Reflexs, Weapon Specialization (and thus Weapon Focus), Mobility (and thus Dodge), seem to be very logical feat choices.
Until I see the power level of the Stances and Maneuvers, I can not make a judgement, but on the surface of things, w/out Stances and Maneuvers, it seems balanced with the Barbarian, and given the situational nature of many of its Class abillities perhaps a bit weaker, as the Barbarian has more control over when it can unleash the pain, (Rage, Power Attack, 2 Handed Weapon and High Strength and Con). Of course Stances and Maneuvers are going to be the kicker...I predict a very strong class indeed. Me thinks my new House rule is going to give Fighter 2 free Skill slots fillable by any skill the player choses to go on the Fighter list, and possibly an extra skill point to boot.
Kunimatyu
First Post
I'm intrigued. I know a few of my players would absolutely love the martial arts feel of the system. There are some things that scream 'broken' from first glance, but first glances can be deceptive, and martial characters have played second fiddle to the wizards for too long.
I'm actually considering picking some of the schools as Dhakanni martial techniques for Eberron, so even if the PCs don't use the book, I can make hobgoblin weapon masters and monks with exotic techniques.
I'm actually considering picking some of the schools as Dhakanni martial techniques for Eberron, so even if the PCs don't use the book, I can make hobgoblin weapon masters and monks with exotic techniques.
Mazlo
First Post
Fighter vs. Warblade
Human Fighter 6 vs. Human Warblade 6
Using only core rules and what is posted on the web sneak peek for Tome of Battle. If I remember correctly, some statistic stated something along the lines that "most games take place between 1st and 12th level", so I decided to put the two classes side by side at 6th level.
Both characters focus on wielding Halberds and using Improved Trip. Both characters have moderate wealth for their level: a +1 Halberd, a +1 suit of armor (Fullplate or Breastplate,) and a Ring of Protection +1. Neither character's build is optimized - feat selection and ability scores may be better chosen. This side-by-side comparison is only to meant to compare two fighter-type characters aiming for the same goal and to see who ends up better.
----------------
Abilities
Exactly the same, built using 28 point buy.
STR 16, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 10, CHA 8
Feats
Fighter (7): Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Iron Will
Warblade (5): Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Power Attack
Skills
Fighter: 5 skills maxed out
Warblade: 7 skills maxed out.
Fighter Skill List: Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Ride, and Swim.
Warblade Skill List: Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (history), Knowledge (local), Martial Lore*, Swim, Tumble
Defense
Fighter
AC 21, Saves: Fort +7, Reflex +4, Will +4
HD: 6d10+12 (49 hp)
Warblade
AC 19, Saves: Fort +7, Reflex +6, Will +2
HD: 6d12+12 (56 hp)
Offense
Fighter
+11/+6 Halberd (1d10+7) [Trip +7]
Warblade
+11/+6 Halberd (1d10+7) [Trip +7]
Specials
Fighter does not receive any.
The Warblade receives Uncanny Dodge, Battle Ardor (+INT to confirm criticals), and maneuvers.
The Warblade in question readies the following maneuvers:
Steel Wind - Strike two adjacent enemies as a standard action
Steely Strike - +4 to attack vs. one foe, all other foes +4 to attack vs. you
Wall of Blades - use an attack roll in place of your AC as an immediate action
Iron Heart Surge - negate a negative condition as a standard action
----------------
The Breakdown
Feats - The Fighter wins here with the addition of Cleave and Iron Will.
Skills - The Warblade is the clear winner here. A better skill list and more skill points.
Defense - The Fighter has slightly better AC. The Fighter has better saves (Will saves are generally more important than Reflex saves.) The Warblade has 7 more hp than the Fighter, almost a whole HD more. Both can use Combat Expertise to boost their AC. Probably a tie but see the Specials category.
Offense - Exactly the same. Both can use Power Attack to boost their damage. Another tie.
Specials - The Warblade clearly wins here. But lets go into a little detail here.
Steel Wind - now the Warblade doesn't need Cleave, he can automatically attack two foes without having to down one first (but he does lose his iterative attack if he uses this maneuver.)
Steely Strike - Great for encounters that only have one foe. A free +4 to hit.
Wall of Blades - the Warblade on an average roll, will increase his AC to 21 against one attack (the same as the Fighter.) And since the better result is used (attack roll or your normal AC), the Warblade is never hurt by using this maneuver. Fifty percent of the time when using this maneuver, the Warblade's AC will be better than the Fighter's (for one attack.)
Iron Heart Surge - As long as he can take a standard action, the Warblade can now free himself from all those annoying spells that take the Fighter right out of the fight. Entangle? Web? Confusion (on a round where you get to act normally)?
----------------
Conclusion
In my opinion, before the Maneuvers are included, the Warblade is a pretty even with the Fighter. Before Maneuvers are considered, essentially the Warblade loses a few feats in exchange for better skills, uncanny dodge, more hit points, and a few "icing on the cake" intelligence-based abilities. That's fair. But once you add in the maneuvers, the Warblade is clearly better.
This is a pretty vanilla example. I think things would be even worse once you start trying to really optimize. I haven't playtested it but on first glance and after a simple comparison, I wouldn't allow someone to play a Warblade in my game.
--Mazlo
Human Fighter 6 vs. Human Warblade 6
Using only core rules and what is posted on the web sneak peek for Tome of Battle. If I remember correctly, some statistic stated something along the lines that "most games take place between 1st and 12th level", so I decided to put the two classes side by side at 6th level.
Both characters focus on wielding Halberds and using Improved Trip. Both characters have moderate wealth for their level: a +1 Halberd, a +1 suit of armor (Fullplate or Breastplate,) and a Ring of Protection +1. Neither character's build is optimized - feat selection and ability scores may be better chosen. This side-by-side comparison is only to meant to compare two fighter-type characters aiming for the same goal and to see who ends up better.
----------------
Abilities
Exactly the same, built using 28 point buy.
STR 16, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 10, CHA 8
Feats
Fighter (7): Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Iron Will
Warblade (5): Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Power Attack
Skills
Fighter: 5 skills maxed out
Warblade: 7 skills maxed out.
Fighter Skill List: Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Ride, and Swim.
Warblade Skill List: Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (history), Knowledge (local), Martial Lore*, Swim, Tumble
Defense
Fighter
AC 21, Saves: Fort +7, Reflex +4, Will +4
HD: 6d10+12 (49 hp)
Warblade
AC 19, Saves: Fort +7, Reflex +6, Will +2
HD: 6d12+12 (56 hp)
Offense
Fighter
+11/+6 Halberd (1d10+7) [Trip +7]
Warblade
+11/+6 Halberd (1d10+7) [Trip +7]
Specials
Fighter does not receive any.
The Warblade receives Uncanny Dodge, Battle Ardor (+INT to confirm criticals), and maneuvers.
The Warblade in question readies the following maneuvers:
Steel Wind - Strike two adjacent enemies as a standard action
Steely Strike - +4 to attack vs. one foe, all other foes +4 to attack vs. you
Wall of Blades - use an attack roll in place of your AC as an immediate action
Iron Heart Surge - negate a negative condition as a standard action
----------------
The Breakdown
Feats - The Fighter wins here with the addition of Cleave and Iron Will.
Skills - The Warblade is the clear winner here. A better skill list and more skill points.
Defense - The Fighter has slightly better AC. The Fighter has better saves (Will saves are generally more important than Reflex saves.) The Warblade has 7 more hp than the Fighter, almost a whole HD more. Both can use Combat Expertise to boost their AC. Probably a tie but see the Specials category.
Offense - Exactly the same. Both can use Power Attack to boost their damage. Another tie.
Specials - The Warblade clearly wins here. But lets go into a little detail here.
Steel Wind - now the Warblade doesn't need Cleave, he can automatically attack two foes without having to down one first (but he does lose his iterative attack if he uses this maneuver.)
Steely Strike - Great for encounters that only have one foe. A free +4 to hit.
Wall of Blades - the Warblade on an average roll, will increase his AC to 21 against one attack (the same as the Fighter.) And since the better result is used (attack roll or your normal AC), the Warblade is never hurt by using this maneuver. Fifty percent of the time when using this maneuver, the Warblade's AC will be better than the Fighter's (for one attack.)
Iron Heart Surge - As long as he can take a standard action, the Warblade can now free himself from all those annoying spells that take the Fighter right out of the fight. Entangle? Web? Confusion (on a round where you get to act normally)?
----------------
Conclusion
In my opinion, before the Maneuvers are included, the Warblade is a pretty even with the Fighter. Before Maneuvers are considered, essentially the Warblade loses a few feats in exchange for better skills, uncanny dodge, more hit points, and a few "icing on the cake" intelligence-based abilities. That's fair. But once you add in the maneuvers, the Warblade is clearly better.
This is a pretty vanilla example. I think things would be even worse once you start trying to really optimize. I haven't playtested it but on first glance and after a simple comparison, I wouldn't allow someone to play a Warblade in my game.
--Mazlo
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