New Group - 4 edition - Would like some imput

[Dr_Sage]

Doubts, doubts...

I believe I have found some middle-ground.

The player is in the "frigid lands", "winter is comming", mood; so looking into the Nethir Vale available material, we can see barbarian tribes in the northwest part of the map.

So I am wondering about the Essentials Berserker. The basic mechanic is intriguing and interesting: he can play the role of the typical front-line warrior (defender aura), but can get angry, and them "hulk smash!". Technically he could alternate between roles, and I appreciate the simplicity of the defender aura mechanic, it makes sense to me.

I am completely confused about the interaction between regular barbarian powers and feats, and the Essentials version. For example, the Berserkers Fury: enters the BF until the end of the encounter when you use a barbarian primal attack power; or as a minor action when bloodied.


Can he go berserk just by using his primal at-wills? How about going berserk every encounter using the second option? I feel like I am missing something. And his Daily rage powers? Character Builder is giving me the option to give him Rage Power Dailies (like Macetail Rage), is it right?

Side note: thank you all for the striker tips, but I am not worried about how long encounters may last. I enjoy variety and options... Usually we don't hear about our fellow DMs exploring the many possibilities for encounters focusing on doing different things, like saving innocent bystanders for example. I admit I am actually a little frightened by the idea of a party of all strikers being just better in fighting team monster.

 

[Klaus]

The Berserker is one of my favorite e-Classes (and it's a great class to make a playable lycanthrope-like character).

The Berserker (e-Barbarian) can take any normal Barbarian powers (including the daily rages). But those are all "primal", so the use of one will trigger his rage, preventing him from using Martial powers and acting as a defender for the rest of the encounter.

If you want a balance, the Berserker can take only martial at-wills (which revert to primal and deal more damage when he rages), a primal encounter power (allowing him the trigger his rage if the situation warrants it), and a martial daily. After that you balance between martial and primal encounters and dailies.

 

[Weather Report]

Remove the 1/2 level bonus, assumed +X magic item math, and halve all monster HP.

 

[Dr_Sage]

The Berserker is one of my favorite e-Classes (and it's a great class to make a playable lycanthrope-like character).

The Berserker (e-Barbarian) can take any normal Barbarian powers (including the daily rages). But those are all "primal", so the use of one will trigger his rage, preventing him from using Martial powers and acting as a defender for the rest of the encounter.

If you want a balance, the Berserker can take only martial at-wills (which revert to primal and deal more damage when he rages), a primal encounter power (allowing him the trigger his rage if the situation warrants it), and a martial daily. After that you balance between martial and primal encounters and dailies.

Claudio, if the character uses any primal power he is forced into the Berserker Fury? My doubt is: the general rule states that just because a power says something like "you push 1 square", does not mean you have to, it actually means that you can (if you wish) push 1 square.

My second doubt is: if he uses a primal daily, entering on a rage, the e-berserkers fury seems have independent effects (in terms of rules, not roleplay). And I feel unease about the possible interactions of the 2 mechanics. Can he willingly end one the effects? Both?

Other detail that is bugging me: does he really looses the ability to use martial powers while in berserker fury?

Lastly: I keep getting worried about essentials and non-essentials in the same party. Seems to me that, in general, e-characters have way better basic attacks (stances effects and the like). In practical terms the e-Hunter have many att-wills, and some juicy effects to his basic attacks. So, if the warlord grants him a basic attack, his stances will allow him to do much more than just shoot his crossbow once. This gets more intense if I add a melee e-character in the party. I am under the impression that some dangerous, not anticipated by design, interactions will appear as the game progresses. Anyone play-tested that?

 

[Klaus]

Claudio, if the character uses any primal power he is forced into the Berserker Fury? My doubt is: the general rule states that just because a power says something like "you push 1 square", does not mean you have to, it actually means that you can (if you wish) push 1 square.

Yes, he is forced to enter the rage. The Berserker Fury text is clear: "when you use a barbarian primal attack power, you enter your Berserker Fury until the end of the encounter". That's why a Berserker should have at least one Martial at-will, so he can function as a defender at least for a while.

My second doubt is: if he uses a primal daily, entering on a rage, the e-berserkers fury seems have independent effects (in terms of rules, not roleplay). And I feel unease about the possible interactions of the 2 mechanics. Can he willingly end one the effects? Both?

I'm assuming you mean the Barbarian powers with the "rage" keyword, right? There are a couple of things to remember:

- The Berserker's fury is different from the Barbarian's rage. They are separate effects.
- Core Barbarian at-will powers that include the sentence "If you are raging...", like Howling Strike, gain benefits when the character is raging. The Berserker will only be able to use these benefits if he uses a daily power with the "rage" keyword and has an at-will power with this sentence.
- The Berserker doesn't have the Rage Strike class feature, that lets a Barbarian spend a "rage" power to gain extra damage.
- On the other hand, the Barbarian doesn't have the Berserker Frenzy class feature. Even if he is raging, he can't access the benefits of the Berserker at-will attacks listed under "Berserker Rage".
- Each daily "rage" power, like Macetail's Rage, have their own effects, described in the power's text. These apply normally to the Berserker.

Other detail that is bugging me: does he really looses the ability to use martial powers while in berserker fury?

No, he doesn't (my mistake). He only loses his defender aura and vengeful guardian powers.

Lastly: I keep getting worried about essentials and non-essentials in the same party. Seems to me that, in general, e-characters have way better basic attacks (stances effects and the like). In practical terms the e-Hunter have many att-wills, and some juicy effects to his basic attacks. So, if the warlord grants him a basic attack, his stances will allow him to do much more than just shoot his crossbow once. This gets more intense if I add a melee e-character in the party. I am under the impression that some dangerous, not anticipated by design, interactions will appear as the game progresses. Anyone play-tested that?

Not "not anticipated". Warlords *love* the martial e-Classes, precisely because of what you just said. Note that these e-Classes don't have daily attacks, so they make up for it with a higher, steady damage output, instead of a lower damage output with high "spikes" of nova damage.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Not "not anticipated". Warlords *love* the martial e-Classes, precisely because of what you just said. Note that these e-Classes don't have daily attacks, so they make up for it with a higher, steady damage output, instead of a lower damage output with high "spikes" of nova damage.

Right. In general fears of problems with Essentials vs 'classic' classes are not overly warranted. Certainly if someone is willing to be a complete min/maxer and heavily exploit interactions between a warlord and say a slayer (for instance) you can see a very nice synergy there which will add significantly to the combat prowess of the party. OTOH it won't break the game. There have been since the first release of 4e equally potent character builds and combinations. Factually there are at this time more optimized builds with more synergy even than warlord/e-martial combos. Charge optimization, some wizard builds, the PHB1 Ranger IN GENERAL, not to mention group tactics such as 'Radiant Mafia' or 'Frost Cheese' setups are extremely effective and hard to counter. Even so, the DM will find ways to challenge such groups, whether it is in areas outside of straight up combat or by use of clever synergies and careful goal design.

At worst there is some variance between e-martial classes and classic classes in terms of adventure pacing. E-martial classes in particular are great with long hard work days where they can repeat their entire limited repertoire of moves every encounter. OTOH classic classes certainly can be more potent when they are able to nova and cut the day short, effectively getting more frequent uses of daily powers. The two are however pretty well balanced between 3 and 6 encounters in a given day IME, which is the situation in the vast majority of cases.

The only other thing to note is that e-classes DO tend to run low on really effective optimizations at high level. A slayer is great, but at level 25 he has a LOT less options than a weaponmaster fighter. Because he lacks a lot of powers which do various things it becomes hard to keep these characters entirely relevant. They're very good at doing their shtick, but it isn't so easy to adapt them to different situations and they can seem a bit flat when they're still chasing around with Power Strike at level 25. You can make it work, and at lower levels its not an issue, but this is probably the most fundamental downside of the Essentials classes if you ask me.

 

[the Jester]

Have you fellows played Essentials and non-Essentials PCs in the same party? Any issues?

Yes, my party has a mix. For a while there were both an Essentials mage and a tome mage in the party. They were very different stylistically, and I could see an argument that the Essentials mage is maybe a bit more powerful in a campaign that doesn't use a lot of rituals, but the balance seemed right on to me.

My party has had a ton of different pcs wander in and out from all kinds of sources. So far as I have seen, 4e does a great job of balancing all kinds of pc options pretty well; there are no banned sources in my current game, which is surprising compared to my game's history.

I say, pull from any and all sources.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

We mixed- no issues.

 

[Dr_Sage]

Yes, my party has a mix. For a while there were both an Essentials mage and a tome mage in the party. They were very different stylistically, and I could see an argument that the Essentials mage is maybe a bit more powerful in a campaign that doesn't use a lot of rituals, but the balance seemed right on to me.

My party has had a ton of different pcs wander in and out from all kinds of sources. So far as I have seen, 4e does a great job of balancing all kinds of pc options pretty well; there are no banned sources in my current game, which is surprising compared to my game's history.

I say, pull from any and all sources.

We mixed- no issues.

To Claudio, and all the others, thank you!

My players are not really optimizers, so it's really ok. I will open all the sources to them, as long the PCs fit the concepts.

I said before and I say agan: I have been playing DnD for more tham 2 decades and I believe 4th edition is the best one in terms of general game balance. The best part is that I can relax and just focus on the DM's main job: the story.

This community rocks!

 

[Klaus]

To Claudio, and all the others, thank you!

My players are not really optimizers, so it's really ok. I will open all the sources to them, as long the PCs fit the concepts.

I said before and I say agan: I have been playing DnD for more tham 2 decades and I believe 4th edition is the best one in terms of general game balance. The best part is that I can relax and just focus on the DM's main job: the story.

This community rocks!

Rock on!

When can I play?