NEW Immortals Handbook - Ascension thread

[Pssthpok]

I'll assume you meant Intelligence and go from there.

Hercules having an 18 Intelligence is the result of him having too high a stat, rather than having a stat be too low. If Hercules' Intelligence ends up too high... well, it's like wearing a sweater on a warm day - you can just take it off. But if you penalize his Intelligence too heavily, you end up not wearing a sweater on a cold day and have the potential to ruin the whole day.

I'm telling you what I think will save this whole debate from flaming ruin. A simple factor would work better than a flat penalty. Here's why: a factor means that everything is decreased proportionally. Hercules would be 3/4ths as intelligent as he could be were it not for his dedication to Strength, or half as much depending on the number of times he took the Strength portfolio. A flat penalty could leave people having to lower characteristically important scores (like lowering Hercules' Strength or Con) in order to compensate for crippling weaknesses in other scores like Intelligence or Wisdom.
If using the aforementioned idea leaves Herc with an 18 and his designer thinks it's too high, well 1-for-1 it to another score; at least it's not lowering other scores that might be important to make up for the imbalance.
Like I said, wear a sweater on a warm day and you're fine. Leave it home on a cold day and you'll be cursing your ill luck... especially when you designed the weather patterns.

 

[poilbrun]

I just don't see a stereotype as anything more than force-fed flavor.

Strong gods will already have lower Intelligence scores, but too high a penalty and they become vegetables.
Roguish gods (i.e. Skill portfolio) will already have lower Con scores, again due to the tables you provide. Penalizing them as heavily as they are now could result in dead roguish gods, well before they ever see the light of day.

I agree here. By giving negative modifiers to ability scores, you actually penalize players who have built their characters around two (supposedly) opposed characteristic: a fighter/mage, for example, is a staple of elves in D&D, and such a character depending on the way it was played, could go for a Strength/Knowledge combination.

Of course a DM could always change the rules to suit the situation. For said god, I would probably double-penalize Constitution to suit the elf theme; but then the character would probably already have a low CON score, and we would then get to the point where we might go into negative scores, as explained above by Pssthpok.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Pssthpok dude!

I'll assume you meant Intelligence and go from there.

Yes, oops!

Hercules having an 18 Intelligence is the result of him having too high a stat, rather than having a stat be too low.

But I am not changing Hercules Intelligence at all, I'm simply not boosting it due to his divine nature.

If Hercules' Intelligence ends up too high... well, it's like wearing a sweater on a warm day - you can just take it off. But if you penalize his Intelligence too heavily, you end up not wearing a sweater on a cold day and have the potential to ruin the whole day.

I don't see it as a penalty. I'm just lessening (or removing) the bonus to that stat gained from the divinity templates.

I'm telling you what I think will save this whole debate from flaming ruin. A simple factor would work better than a flat penalty. Here's why: a factor means that everything is decreased proportionally. Hercules would be 3/4ths as intelligent as he could be were it not for his dedication to Strength, or half as much depending on the number of times he took the Strength portfolio. A flat penalty could leave people having to lower characteristically important scores (like lowering Hercules' Strength or Con) in order to compensate for crippling weaknesses in other scores like Intelligence or Wisdom.

Would it be a crippling weakness for Hercules to have an Intelligence score of 10? Or for Zagyg to have a Strength and Constitution of only 15?

The only problem I can forsee is against ability draining/damage, however (as I noted recently over at dicefreaks) the Withering [Effect] is broken and needs fixed.

If using the aforementioned idea leaves Herc with an 18 and his designer thinks it's too high, well 1-for-1 it to another score; at least it's not lowering other scores that might be important to make up for the imbalance.

Hes already getting a 2:1 onto strength based on the Portfolio alone.

Like I said, wear a sweater on a warm day and you're fine. Leave it home on a cold day and you'll be cursing your ill luck... especially when you designed the weather patterns.

I think what this all boils down to is whether or not playing with your initial score in a stat is too great a weakness, personally I don't think it is, but you seem to think its going to undermine immortals.

 

[dante58701]

How is an 18 too high for Hercules...he was noted as being particularly clever, if not very wise. His only frailty was his weak willed nature. I would penalize his wisdom rather than his intelligence. Brute force (strength) has always been counterintuitive (wisdom), rather than a display of outright stupidity. Many of the smartest ordinary people do the most incredibly unwise things, particularly when they rely on brute force.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

I think what this all boils down to is whether or not playing with your initial score in a stat is too great a weakness, personally I don't think it is, but you seem to think its going to undermine immortals.

The only problem I can see with this is that with the portfolios that give you [ability] drain/damage give you a whole lot of it, not only does it totally annihilate anyone. (Even if the attacked stat is their focus) but it ensures that those without divine bonuses are screwed. Perhaps weakening the ability damage/drain powers would best work. (Poison and disease don't need that much tweaking; spells can take care of their effects; Its the Withering effect that is too strong - perhaps cutting it by half or down to 1/4 of it's current strength would make it less of a 'must-have')

U_K, I also think you might have forgotten something: In your description of the divinity templates you say players can change their ability score distribution from their divine bonues, and that some portfolios allow a 2:1 or better conversion. Could this be what you intended? (Ex: A single Strength portfolio might allow a 2:1 or maybe a 3:2 to strength from other stats, and a double Strength portfolio might be 1:1.) It lets the deity in question decide what it's own weakness, if any, will be. (of course you could get a greater god with double strength who lumps everything into strength. Said god, if my math is right, could have ~345!!! Strength, before Legendary and Total Strength powers, or Great Strength epic feats! If said god tries to punch you, the heat from the Nuclear Fission required to power his muscles will have evaporated your skin before he even hits you. Just think of the Virtual Size Catagories! 22 of em!)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi dante mate!

How is an 18 too high for Hercules...he was noted as being particularly clever, if not very wise. His only frailty was his weak willed nature. I would penalize his wisdom rather than his intelligence. Brute force (strength) has always been counterintuitive (wisdom), rather than a display of outright stupidity. Many of the smartest ordinary people do the most incredibly unwise things, particularly when they rely on brute force.

While you may have a point regarding his Wisdom (although Hercules was never considered bright, therefore his Intelligence should be average not 'genius' (ie. 18), I am trying to create a system of mechanics to achieve the almost impossible, and I don't have the time to deal with every eventuality, hence the concentration upon stereotypes.

While Herc may indeed have a less than stellar wisdom score, but I don't think thats anything to do with his strength. Whereas its a clear case of 'hitting the weights' instead of 'hitting the books'.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy!

The only problem I can see with this is that with the portfolios that give you [ability] drain/damage give you a whole lot of it, not only does it totally annihilate anyone. (Even if the attacked stat is their focus) but it ensures that those without divine bonuses are screwed. Perhaps weakening the ability damage/drain powers would best work. (Poison and disease don't need that much tweaking; spells can take care of their effects; Its the Withering effect that is too strong - perhaps cutting it by half or down to 1/4 of it's current strength would make it less of a 'must-have')

I agree - in fact thats what I am doing.

U_K, I also think you might have forgotten something: In your description of the divinity templates you say players can change their ability score distribution from their divine bonues, and that some portfolios allow a 2:1 or better conversion. Could this be what you intended? (Ex: A single Strength portfolio might allow a 2:1 or maybe a 3:2 to strength from other stats, and a double Strength portfolio might be 1:1.) It lets the deity in question decide what it's own weakness, if any, will be. (of course you could get a greater god with double strength who lumps everything into strength. Said god, if my math is right, could have ~345!!! Strength, before Legendary and Total Strength powers, or Great Strength epic feats! If said god tries to punch you, the heat from the Nuclear Fission required to power his muscles will have evaporated your skin before he even hits you. Just think of the Virtual Size Catagories! 22 of em!)

Oddly enough I had forgot that, which could well be the solution to our problems.

Well the conversion bonus is already 2:1, so a single would have to allow 3:2 and a double 1:1.

However these trade off will only work for one opposed ability score, with others you revert to the 2:1 deal.

Does that solve your problem Pssthpok?

The problem as I see it is that its not much of a bloody weakness though. Which means I am back to square one with regards the Ability Score Portfolio weaknesses.

 

[Pssthpok]

Does that solve your problem Pssthpok?

I can't see how it would.
Giving a deity double secrets while they have a primary stat of Charisma doesn't enable them to keep their Charisma from going down the loo.

The argument I get from you is that the penalties simply remove the divine bonuses. This is not true. Look, a Greater Deity built using Tables 2-10 to 2-13, who has a primary stat that has arbitrarily been set in opposition to their portfolio (even if it doesn't make sense, like with a sorcerer with double secrets) has the following build, using your own rules:

Str 24, Dex 72, Con 48, Int 24, Wis 48, Cha 72.

This is before portfolios/templates/items/etc.

Throwing on double secrets drops their Intelligence by 32 points. This is not removing the divine bonus, it's eradicated more than the whole of the score.

Solving this peculiarity will require either a rewrite of Tables 2-12 and 2-13, removing/changing opposed abilities in the Portfolio rules, or instituting a safety on these penalties, like a "minimum of 10" clause or a factor-based penalty. Anything else doesn't make sense, at least not from where I'm standing.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Pssthpok mate!

I can't see how it would.
Giving a deity double secrets while they have a primary stat of Charisma doesn't enable them to keep their Charisma from going down the loo.

The argument I get from you is that the penalties simply remove the divine bonuses. This is not true. Look, a Greater Deity built using Tables 2-10 to 2-13, who has a primary stat that has arbitrarily been set in opposition to their portfolio (even if it doesn't make sense, like with a sorcerer with double secrets) has the following build, using your own rules:

Str 24, Dex 72, Con 48, Int 24, Wis 48, Cha 72.

This is before portfolios/templates/items/etc.

Throwing on double secrets drops their Intelligence by 32 points. This is not removing the divine bonus, it's eradicated more than the whole of the score.

Solving this peculiarity will require either a rewrite of Tables 2-12 and 2-13, removing/changing opposed abilities in the Portfolio rules, or instituting a safety on these penalties, like a "minimum of 10" clause or a factor-based penalty. Anything else doesn't make sense, at least not from where I'm standing.

Ah yes, I see your dilemma now.

The scores on those tables are doctored to better suit each class, so that you don't end up with a divine array at each divine status.

But I was assuming people would make such changes after Portfolios rather than before.

So I have been using the Average stat scores as representative in these discussions.

Of course, as you note, that still leaves us with the problem at hand.

Remembering of course that you can only manipulate the divine bonus in this manner, not your ability scores as a whole. So you just can't trade 2 points of Intelligence for one of Strength. Only two points of your divine bonus to Intelligence to gain an extra point of divine bonus to Strength.

So the characters intelligence would never drop below what it was originally before they gained immortality.

However, one point of contention in the Tables is that full divine bonuses are already built in. One other problem is that those Tables do not take the 2:1 trade off into account. Simply a 1:1 trade off. Although that could be easily fixed by reducing the maximum to halfway between its current figure and the Average figure.

e.g. Greater Power Fighter: Str 60*, Con 60*, Cha 48, Dex 48, Int 24, Wis 24

*Instead of 72

What you really need to do is start with the Averages, then apply the portfolio boosts/weaknesses.

Greater Power Fighter, Double Strength portfolio:

Str 80 (48 + 32), Con 60 (48 + 12), Cha 48, Dex 48, Int 16 (48 - 32), Wis 24 (48 - 24)

Step #1: Average stat score is 48.
Step #2: Character gains +32 strength but at the cost of -32 Intelligence
Step #3: Character trades -24 Wisdom for +12 Constitution

Baghtru (Son of Gruumsh, Intermediate Deity, Fighter 48, Rogue 5, Assassin 13): double Strength portfolio

Mortal Scores (elite array) Str 15, Con 14, Dex 12, Cha 13, Int 8, Wis 10.

Orc: +4 Str, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha

Huge size: +20 Str, +8 Con, -4 Dex

Divinity: Adds +24 to each score

Strength Portfolio: +24 strength at the cost of -24 Intelligence

Trades -24 Wisdom for +12 Con

66 Levels: +16 ability score bonus

Baghtru's Ability Scores (before feats/divine abilities):

Str 103 (15 + 4 + 20 + 24 + 24 + 16) = +4 VSCs (and Huge) 8d6 base damage with gauntleted fist (+23 Gauntlets with +22 worth of abilities)...and thats before feats and divine abilities!
Con 58 (14 + 8 + 24 + 12)
Dex 32
Int 6
Wis 8
Cha 35

Hercules (Son of Zeus, Demi-deity, Barbarian 36):

Mortal Scores (elite array) Str 15, Con 14, Dex 12, Cha 13, Int 10, Wis 8.

Divinity: Adds +12 to each score

Strength Portfolio: +12 strength at the cost of -12 Intelligence

Trades -12 Wisdom for +6 Con

36 Levels: +9 ability score bonus

Hercules' Ability Scores (before feats/divine abilities):

Str 48 (15 + 12 + 12 + 9) = +2 VSCs, 2d10 with +12 greatclub (with +11 of specials)
Con 32
Dex 24
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 24

 

[Pssthpok]

So, start a build with all averages, then apply Portfolio bonuses/penalties, then class-level bonuses?

I'm not sure that helps my understanding, since you're making examples of ascended mortals and not gods generated from the ether (i.e. your tables). Furthermore, I don't think people are going to understand that off the tables you've provided, which clearly suggest that you distribute scores according to class distribution, and that leaves certain builds with a LOT to be desired in certain areas.