NEW Immortals Handbook - Ascension thread

[Upper_Krust]

Hi paradox mate!

It changes the forms those interactions can take, certainly, but I wouldn't call them "problematic" myself. They're just different, really. In your scheme, it's theoretically possible for a small group of Intermediate and/or Greater deities to take down an Old One, at least to the point of making it dormant again and forcing it to take advantage of its Cosmic String ability. In my scheme, it really isn't, unless the deities in question acquire some supremely powerful Cosmic artifact or have at their disposal such massive technologies as, say, a warship the size of a whole planet. And even then, the battle will be in doubt. Likewise, mortals- even Epic ones- who try to face down even a demigod in direct combat are in for the fight of their lives, if they have even a slim chance of survival. Facing down a demigod's 30-HD avatar is possible, certainly- perhaps even easy- but facing the demigod's actual 120-HD base manifestation? Not so much. To me, this is a satisfying state of affairs.

I personally don't see the point of making each step too far beyond the previous one, it just reduces the interaction. However, I seem to recall having this exact same conversation with you the last time you told me you were doing this...and you didn't listen to me back then either.

But if you are having fun then why not!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Dante - you have posted a monster in the wrong thread.

Hey Pssthpok mate!

This is nice. I'd change Tables 2-12 and 2-13 to reflect this idea, if I were you.

I will indeed.

 

[paradox42]

I personally don't see the point of making each step too far beyond the previous one, it just reduces the interaction.

From what I've seen, the reason you feel this way is that you write off the possibility of extremely powerful beings interfering in the activities of beings much less powerful than themselves, as evidenced by your rules for divine intervention. I have no such rules in my setting, and in fact beings on the Greater God level can and do start showing up (in person) in characters' lives even as early as 8th level. Thus, as I said, for me it doesn't reduce anything- it just changes the character of the interactions that do occur.

After all, I did mention that the characters in my Epic game have already met the being they know to be an avatar of an actual Sidereal, and that happened way back when they were gaining their first Epic levels! The last few sessions of that same game have been largely occupied by what one player dubbed 'god-hopping,' wherein the party met one god, who directed them to another, who directed them to another and so on. Whole sessions have been spent on pure RP, with nary a combat in sight.

However, I seem to recall having this exact same conversation with you the last time you told me you were doing this...and you didn't listen to me back then either.

But if you are having fun then why not!

Not precisely the same, but close. In any case at that time I didn't yet have the evidence to make the counterargument I just did above, if I recall correctly.

 

[dante58701]

I have an idea regarding outsiders.

How about this...present the option of outsider packages. Kinda like divine ability packages.

For outsiders...you get the outsiders physical form at the cost of one divine ability slot if it is a common form such as vrock, a cosmic slot if it is an uncommon form such as seraphim, or, a transcendental slot if it is a rare form, such as the form or a particularly weird time lord. These forms could included all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of that form (kinda like shapechange only fixed and permanent).

You could even write up different outsider packages.

Example...Vrock...you get their physical shape (ability adjustments for size...all else determined by your divine rank and hit dice), their extraordinary abilities and their supernatural abilities...then you apply the divine template. Require certain outsider subtypes for certain forms...like "Demon" for the Vrock template.

This would allow for mortals to become fiends.


[Outsider] Form (Ex)
Your natural form is that of a particularly common outsider.
Prerequisites:Varies (by form)
Benefit:Your natural form is that of a particularly common outsider. Your exact form is entirely dependent upon you chosen subtypes, selected either via Dimensional Ancestry, Elemental Ancestry or Spiritual Ancestry. This form may be any form that possesses Hit Dice equivalent to your character level. You acquire the physical shape (natural armor, natural attacks, ect.), physical size (including physical ability modifiers), extraordinary abilities, and supernatural abilities of the form in question. Your ability scores are remain unchanged, with the exception of Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution adjustments based on size, and you do not acquire additional divine, cosmic, transcendental, or omnific abilities through the acquisition of this ability. You may and must still acquire such abilities normally

Example: A character who chooses Vrock form gets dance of ruin, spores, ect. But will not acrue extra divine abilities beyond their normal total.

Thus a character with Elohim form will not automatically acquire abilities that are specifically divine such as Exalt, Hand of God, ect.

This divine ability is intended for 3.5 Outsiders that have not been converted. But may be used to acquire other forms at the DMs discretion.



I know...it needs a lot of airbrushing before it becomes viable. But...it's a work in progress.

Maybe someone can airbrush it for me?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey dante mate!

I know...it needs a lot of airbrushing before it becomes viable. But...it's a work in progress.

Maybe someone can airbrush it for me?

I'll give you something to bloody airbrush.

I think you are simply overthinking the obvious.

Shapechange.

Just allow a deity to shapechange into a monster of CR equal to 2/3rds the deities ECL.

 

[paradox42]

I think you are simply overthinking the obvious.

Shapechange.

Just allow a deity to shapechange into a monster of CR equal to 2/3rds the deities ECL.

Well, the point of dante's ability was that the creature's natural (i.e., non-polymorphed) form becomes the Outsider.

But yes, it's hard to see how that confers benefits over the liberal use of the Shapechange spell/effect. It's an interesting notion, to be sure, and I think makes a great deal of sense in the context of the game setting as written in core rules- but I'm hard pressed to think of a reason, mechanically, for taking it. It looks like a pure RP/flavor thing to me.

 

[dante58701]

Perhaps then it should be offered as part of the Chaos, Evil, Good, and/or Law portfolios. Or we could just take liberties with the Appearance aspects of portfolios? Perhaps Appearance could be used to define "True Form".

 

[dante58701]

(Dante pokes Krusty with a stick) *Poke Poke*

"Where are our updates?" *Poke Poke*

"We want out updates!!!" *Poke Poke*

(Dante whispers) "Is he dead?"

*Poke Poke*

(Other whispers) "Hope not."

(Dante gets out a shovel and drags Krusty to the garden)

(Dante digs a really big hole)


J/k take your time.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey guys!

Update probably tomorrow tea time. But thats not what I wanted to talk about...which is hit points.

I am wondering if, instead of the x2 for Eternals should be replaced by a x10.

The problem as I see it is strength/damage (due to VSCs) vs. hit points.

If we take a Time Lord with typical scores:

999d1000 HD with 440 Con (Macro-Tiny) = 1,213,785 hp.

Str 482 (Macro-Tiny) = 40,960d10 (slam) = 225 thousand approx.

Str 731* (Macro-Tiny) = 15,728,640d10 = 86 million approx.

*Puts all 1/4 HD bonuses into strength.

Its just going to be way too easy to take damage into the stratosphere once you start hitting Sidereal status. Its probably best left alone because there doesn't seem to be a long term fix. But I suggest that anyone gaming above greater power should tread carefully, because even with my best efforts balance will go out the window.

I'd keep PCs at Immortal levels, (interactive) NPCs limited to Sidereal levels and make Eternals (non-interactive NPCs).

...at least until I can think up a way round the problem, but then the Eternals were always meant to be in there for 'fun'.

...okay I've just thought of a solution*. Consider Time Lord PCs a viable prospect once again.

*What about Damage Reduction that halves damage and can be stacked: DR 1/2, DR 1/4, DR 1/8, DR 1/16, DR 1/32 etc. Each is equivalent to a Cosmic Ability.

This would cancel out two size categories or virtual size category benefits.

Maybe:

Elder One - DR 1/2 (-2 VSCs)
Old One - DR 1/4 (-4)
First One - DR 1/8 (-6)

Demiurge - DR 1/32 (-10)
Stage II - DR 1/128 (-14)
Stage III - DR 1/512 (-18)

Time Lord - DR 1/8,192 (-26)

There are probably easier ways to set it up.

Demiurge - 1/10 (-7 VSCs)
Stage II - 1/100 (-13)
Stage III - 1/1000 (-19)
Time Lord - 1/10,000 (-25)
Duad - 1/100,000 (-31)
Triad - 1/1,000,000 (-37)

Any Thoughts?

 

[Phantom Llama]

Such an ability would make intuitive sense.

The problem you present is a predictable outcome of the Virtual Size Category mechanics, since they scale exponentially.