Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

Asgorath · Feb 15, 2019

Yunru said:
You do know repeatedly saying something doesn't automatically make it true, right?

There are zero rules on the action having to be taken and completed. None.

Of all the official text, it is mentioned exactly nowhere.

Right, but JEC has been fairly consistent (at least in the last few months) about what the intent of the Shield Master slam is. I'm with you that slice-shove-slice seems reasonable based on the wording, but my point is that it's a stretch to say shove-slice-slice is allowed by RAW and certainly not by RAI.

Based on this:

https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/994997096829804549

JEC is claiming that the trigger of "if you take the Attack action on your turn" is only satisfied when all attacks granted via Extra Action have been taken. Is this language in the PHB? No, obviously not, or else we wouldn't still be discussing it 5 years after the books were released.

Yunru · Feb 15, 2019

Asgorath said:
Right, but JEC has been fairly consistent (at least in the last few months) about what the intent of the Shield Master slam is. I'm with you that slice-shove-slice seems reasonable based on the wording, but my point is that it's a stretch to say shove-slice-slice is allowed by RAW and certainly not by RAI.

Based on this:

https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/994997096829804549

JEC is claiming that the trigger of "if you take the Attack action on your turn" is only satisfied when all attacks granted via Extra Action have been taken. Is this language in the PHB? No, obviously not, or else we wouldn't still be discussing it 5 years after the books were released.

Then why didn't it make it into the compendium?

Because on review they decided it wasn't. There's no other reasonable explanation.

mortwatcher · Feb 15, 2019

Yunru said:
Then why didn't it make it into the compendium?

Because on review they decided it wasn't. There's no other reasonable explanation.

But it did make it into the compendium. Page 8.

Maxperson · Feb 15, 2019

Asgorath said:
I think we're in violent agreement about Shield Master, since that bonus action has timing requirements that must be met before you even have access to the bonus action.

However, there are plenty of bonus actions without timing requirements, and those can be taken at any time on your turn (as clearly stated by the rules). The example we keep using is Misty Step, which does not say "if you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to teleport up to 30 feet...". It's just a spell with a casting time of 1 bonus action. The bonus action rules say you get to decide when to take the bonus action, unless it specifies timing. Thus, between attacks granted by Extra Attack while taking the Attack action counts as any point on your turn, and thus you can Misty Step or cast Healing Word and so on (i.e. any bonus action that doesn't have a timing requirement to actually trigger the bonus action).

Or, in other words, just because Shield Master requires the Attack action to be taken and completed, doesn't mean that rule applies to all other bonus actions.

"Any time" does not in fact mean "any time," though. You can't do things simultaneously, so there are limits on when you can do things, even when the rules say any time. For instance, if you are taking an action and you have a bonus action that can happen at "any time," you must still choose to use it before or after the action, or if you believe in action divisibility, in the middle of two attacks when there is an amount of time not being taken by the first attack.

If you believe in the phantom action divisibility rule, then you can use those bonus actions during the action as I lay out above. If you believe in the phantom action indivisibility rule, then you wont be able to without a specific exception such as Two-Weapon Fighting lays out. It just depends on how you view action divisibility.

Maxperson · Feb 15, 2019

Hriston said:
Yes, you have! You took the Attack action when you shoved, because without taking the Attack action in some other way, you don't meet the condition for using your bonus action. Luckily the feat is written in such a way that this isn't a problem, since it's letting you do something as a bonus action that would normally require the action that you have to take to meet the condition for using it as a bonus action.

No. When you shoved you took a bonus action that was granted by the attack action, which if you get knocked out before you take it, you never took. You do not actually take the attack action until you attempt to make that first attack. I say attempt, because Sanctuary can stop the attack without stopping the Attack Action.

epithet · Feb 16, 2019

Asgorath said:
Right, but JEC has been fairly consistent (at least in the last few months) about what the intent of the Shield Master slam is. I'm with you that slice-shove-slice seems reasonable based on the wording, but my point is that it's a stretch to say shove-slice-slice is allowed by RAW and certainly not by RAI.

Based on this:

https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/994997096829804549

JEC is claiming that the trigger of "if you take the Attack action on your turn" is only satisfied when all attacks granted via Extra Action have been taken. Is this language in the PHB? No, obviously not, or else we wouldn't still be discussing it 5 years after the books were released.

Neither the Sage Advice compendium nor Jeremy's Twitter feed count as "rules as written," and with regard to "rules as intended" Jeremy has changed his mind. Yes, he has and is vigorously disavowing his earlier statement that Shield Master was intended to let you shove first, but the fact remains that the ability to shove first was his official position for a couple of years. I don't think he gets to claw back his RAI position--regardless of what he intends the rule to be now, the rule as intended when written seems to be that the shield master can shove first.

He can certainly change his advice, and he can tell us how he intends for the rule to be read now, but he can't change what he meant when the rules were published, no matter how much he walks back his tweets.

epithet · Feb 16, 2019

Maxperson said:
No. When you shoved you took a bonus action that was granted by the attack action, which if you get knocked out before you take it, you never took. You do not actually take the attack action until you attempt to make that first attack. I say attempt, because Sanctuary can stop the attack without stopping the Attack Action.

You first sentence is only true if you accept Jeremy's new position on timing, whereas your last sentence is only true if you reject his new position. You can't have it both ways.

Maxperson · Feb 16, 2019

epithet said:
You first sentence is only true if you accept Jeremy's new position on timing, whereas your last sentence is only true if you reject his new position. You can't have it both ways.

That's not true. Both of my statements are totally in line with what he said. The first statement is in line with his recent position as you have to complete the action in order to get the bonus action. That means that if you take the bonus action before the action, whether or not you eventually take the Attack action, you are in violation with his new position. The second statement is in line with his recent position as the Sanctuary spell is specific that beats general. The attack action is begun and completes without you ever get to swing. The Sanctuary spell does not stop you from taking the attack action. It stops you from taking the steps after targeting.

epithet · Feb 16, 2019

Maxperson said:
That's not true. Both of my statements are totally in line with what he said. The first statement is in line with his recent position as you have to complete the action in order to get the bonus action. That means that if you take the bonus action before the action, whether or not you eventually take the Attack action, you are in violation with his new position. The second statement is in line with his recent position as the Sanctuary spell is specific that beats general. The attack action is begun and completes without you ever get to swing. The Sanctuary spell does not stop you from taking the attack action. It stops you from taking the steps after targeting.

The sanctuary spell stops you from targeting. You have performed no part of an attack. Nothing at all has happened, so you have not (in the new Crawfordverse) taken the attack action. Remember the whole "declarations don't count" thing?

Asgorath · Feb 16, 2019

epithet said:
Neither the Sage Advice compendium nor Jeremy's Twitter feed count as "rules as written," and with regard to "rules as intended" Jeremy has changed his mind. Yes, he has and is vigorously disavowing his earlier statement that Shield Master was intended to let you shove first, but the fact remains that the ability to shove first was his official position for a couple of years. I don't think he gets to claw back his RAI position--regardless of what he intends the rule to be now, the rule as intended when written seems to be that the shield master can shove first.

He can certainly change his advice, and he can tell us how he intends for the rule to be read now, but he can't change what he meant when the rules were published, no matter how much he walks back his tweets.

Did you actually watch the video I've linked a few times now? He talks about his original (incorrect) tweet in some detail, and he makes it extremely clear that his original tweet was a mistake on his part. And, given that he's the lead rules designer, I think his more recent in-depth discussions about the intent of the Shield Master shove bonus action gives a better insight into the rules than a quick off-hand tweet that he made while standing in line at Trader Joe's or whatever it was.

As discussed in the video, if the intent was for Shield Master to just give you a bonus action shove, then it would've said exactly that (i.e. no timing restriction, you just get a bonus action). Similarly, if the intent was to grant permanent advantage on all attacks, it would've just said that. D&D is a co-op game and he goes to great lengths in the video to explain that it's meant to be a finishing move that helps your melee allies out. You can chose to ignore all of this of course, but I really think it's hard to deny what the intent of the rule is at this point.

For me, the only slightly grey area is whether or not you have to take all attacks granted by Extra Attack before the Attack action is considered "taken". As I linked above, JEC has tweeted that the intent is yes, it really is meant to be slice-slice-shove not slice-shove-slice. This isn't really spelled out in the PHB, but I'll take his word for it that this was the intent (given that, you know, he probably wrote the rule in the first place). If I was a DM and someone had taken this feat and really wanted to slice-shove-slice, I would let them, because after the first attack you have committed yourself to the Attack action and can't take any other actions on your turn (outside of Action Surge of course).

Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

Asgorath

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