Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

Maxperson · Feb 18, 2019

Asgorath said:
Okay, so there's a long Twitter thread about Shield Master where JEC makes a broader statement, or the PHB wording itself and the most recent Sage Advice video where he explicitly says that if the bonus action doesn't have specific timing built into it, you can take it at any time on your turn.

But without specific wording, you cannot take two actions at the same time. A bonus action is still an action. It's just a bonus one.

Asgorath · Feb 18, 2019

Maxperson said:
But without specific wording, you cannot take two actions at the same time. A bonus action is still an action. It's just a bonus one.

A bonus action is not an action, though. You can't just convert one to the other. The bonus action rules explicitly say that you get to decide when you take your bonus action (if you have one), unless the bonus action itself specifies a timing restriction or trigger. JEC has clarified this on Twitter, in response to questions along the lines of the discussion we're having now:

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/05/23/clarification-about-bonus-actions/

In particular, the section with the following:

"It’s not just about shield master or triggered bonus actions when you say that no rule permits a bonus action between multiple attacks."

...

"But you wanted to know where you said no bonus actions between attacks. I identified the phrase. Whether you meant that or not, that’s what you said here."

"Ah ha! Now I get what you're driving at. I was focused on bonus actions with triggers. You're talking about bonus actions without triggers. I'll clarify things! Thanks for your patience."

The in the Sage Advice video also talks about how actions and bonus actions are separate things.

guachi · Feb 18, 2019

Every time Shield Master devolves into a multi-hundred post argument I get a thrill that I'm the one who asked the question on Twitter in the first place. Created a Twitter account just to ask the question, in fact.

You're welcome.

Give XP if you are thankful. Laugh at me if you rue the day I asked the question.

Maxperson · Feb 18, 2019

Asgorath said:
A bonus action is not an action, though. You can't just convert one to the other. The bonus action rules explicitly say that you get to decide when you take your bonus action (if you have one), unless the bonus action itself specifies a timing restriction or trigger. JEC has clarified this on Twitter, in response to questions along the lines of the discussion we're having now:

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/05/23/clarification-about-bonus-actions/

In particular, the section with the following:

"It’s not just about shield master or triggered bonus actions when you say that no rule permits a bonus action between multiple attacks."

...

"But you wanted to know where you said no bonus actions between attacks. I identified the phrase. Whether you meant that or not, that’s what you said here."

"Ah ha! Now I get what you're driving at. I was focused on bonus actions with triggers. You're talking about bonus actions without triggers. I'll clarify things! Thanks for your patience."

The in the Sage Advice video also talks about how actions and bonus actions are separate things.

These quotes seal the deal, though.

1. "There's a rule that allows you to insert movement between your attacks (PH, 190). There's intentionally no rule that allows you to nest actions/reactions inside each other. They are meant to have integrity as processes, except when we create exceptions meant to disrupt them."

Right there it he is saying that actions are indivisible except by specific beats general.

2. "In 2017, I changed the ruling on bonus action timing because the old ruling was illogical. The original ruling failed to account for the fact that X relying on Y is a form of timing. The new ruling corrects that oversight."

And here is where he says there is specific timing in the Shield Master feat, where taking and completing the requirement for the bonus action is necessary in order to get it. Basically, if there is a requirement that needs to be met in order to get a bonus action, there is timing built into that bonus action.

So while a bonus action with no trigger at all could be used in-between attacks(it still can't be used simultaneously with one), Shield Master still requires that you complete the full Attack action. The last portion is at odds with #1 above, though.

Asgorath · Feb 18, 2019

Maxperson said:
These quotes seal the deal, though.

1. "There's a rule that allows you to insert movement between your attacks (PH, 190). There's intentionally no rule that allows you to nest actions/reactions inside each other. They are meant to have integrity as processes, except when we create exceptions meant to disrupt them."

Right there it he is saying that actions are indivisible except by specific beats general.

2. "In 2017, I changed the ruling on bonus action timing because the old ruling was illogical. The original ruling failed to account for the fact that X relying on Y is a form of timing. The new ruling corrects that oversight."

And here is where he says there is specific timing in the Shield Master feat, where taking and completing the requirement for the bonus action is necessary in order to get it. Basically, if there is a requirement that needs to be met in order to get a bonus action, there is timing built into that bonus action.

So while a bonus action with no trigger at all could be used in-between attacks(it still can't be used simultaneously with one), Shield Master still requires that you complete the full Attack action. The last portion is at odds with #1 above, though.

Right, so it sounds like you’re agreeing with me? Misty Step or Healing Word between attacks is fine, Shield Master shove not allowed until all attacks are taken because it has a timing requirement that must be met before you even have the bonus action.

Enevhar Aldarion · Feb 18, 2019

Asgorath said:
Right, so it sounds like you’re agreeing with me? Misty Step or Healing Word between attacks is fine, Shield Master shove not allowed until all attacks are taken because it has a timing requirement that must be met before you even have the bonus action.

I would say yes to the first part, but I am leaning toward the Shield Master bonus action being allowed in between the first attack and any extra attacks a character has as part of their attack action. The rule is not well worded and Crawford's explanations are not well worded either, really. When you "take the attack action" is present tense, so it reads like you can mix in the bonus action in between attacks because you are in the process. If the wording was when you "have taken the attack action", which is past tense, then it would be obvious you would have to complete all attacks that are part of the action before the bonus action triggers.

For example, a fighter with two attacks and Shield Master who is facing three enemies should be able to use the first attack on one enemy, knock the second one out of the way with his shield, then attack the third, especially if I want my game running more cinematically than a typical D&D game.

Lord Twig · Feb 18, 2019

Maxperson said:
These quotes seal the deal, though.

1. "There's a rule that allows you to insert movement between your attacks (PH, 190). There's intentionally no rule that allows you to nest actions/reactions inside each other. They are meant to have integrity as processes, except when we create exceptions meant to disrupt them."

Right there it he is saying that actions are indivisible except by specific beats general.

2. "In 2017, I changed the ruling on bonus action timing because the old ruling was illogical. The original ruling failed to account for the fact that X relying on Y is a form of timing. The new ruling corrects that oversight."

And here is where he says there is specific timing in the Shield Master feat, where taking and completing the requirement for the bonus action is necessary in order to get it. Basically, if there is a requirement that needs to be met in order to get a bonus action, there is timing built into that bonus action.

So while a bonus action with no trigger at all could be used in-between attacks(it still can't be used simultaneously with one), Shield Master still requires that you complete the full Attack action. The last portion is at odds with #1 above, though.

I wasn't going to reply to this thread anymore, but reading through Jeremy's tweets definitely clarified things.

I believed that you could not take bonus actions in the middle of another action, because nothing said you could. Just saying "you can take a bonus action anytime" is not specific enough for me. I have played hundreds of games, and in none of them can you take an action in the middle of another action unless it specifically says so. It would have been a lot clearer if it had said: "You can take a bonus action any time during your turn, even in the middle of other actions."

But anyway, apparently I was wrong. You can take bonus actions in the middle of other actions. Although I will probably house rule some limitations on that. Like casting a bonus spell in the middle of casting another spell (like Eldritch Blast). But I understand that would be a house rule.

You still can't take the bonus action shove from Shield Master until after you have completed the attack though. Which is fine since that is the way we have always run it.

Lord Twig · Feb 18, 2019

Asgorath said:
Right, so it sounds like you’re agreeing with me? Misty Step or Healing Word between attacks is fine, Shield Master shove not allowed until all attacks are taken because it has a timing requirement that must be met before you even have the bonus action.

This seems correct to me.

5ekyu · Feb 18, 2019

Lord Twig said:
This seems correct to me.

And likely why no mention of indivisible action made it into the two official resources once they made them explicit.

Partly at least.

FrogReaver · Feb 18, 2019

Maxperson said:
JC says it is a general rule, not a specific one in this ruling. "No general rule allows you to insert a bonus action between attacks in a single action. You can interrupt a multiple-attack action with a bonus action/reaction only if the trigger of the bonus action/reaction is an attack, rather than the action."

If it was a specific rule, it would specify that you can interrupt the Attack action, but it doesn't.

Not so. See above. If it doesn't specifically state you can use it in the middle of the Attack action, you can't. The reason is that it is a general rule. It is telling you generally how bonus actions work. A general rule cannot create an exception for another general rule, even if it appears to. It requires a specific rule to do so.

By SPECIFIC rules man! We do indeed have multiple specific rules creating exceptions. That alone should clue you in that the general rule on bonus actions does not apply. If it did, we wouldn't have these specific rules creating all those exceptions.

There isn’t even a general or specific rule that says attacks granted by the attack action can’t be divided. It may well be RAI that they cannot but that rule isn’t actually written. As such I’ve not got to find a specific rule to say I can do something between attacks granted by the attack action. Instead, I just need a rule that says “you choose when to take your bonus action” because there’s no other actual rule at all that this rule is competing with.

Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

Asgorath

Explorer

guachi

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

Asgorath

Explorer

Enevhar Aldarion

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Lord Twig

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Lord Twig

Adventurer

5ekyu

Hero

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

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