Old school/new school definitions -- meaningless?

[seskis281]

Old School or not, fun is more important than anything else so any labels marketers place on adventure doesn't influence me.

Be that as it may, some of the old adventures have things newer adventures tend to lack. Deadliness, wierd magical traps, chaotic effects that leave your character with three heads, lethal statues and a sense of humor are, sadly, some of the things that seem to have been lost in the majority of published adventures just lately. Little things that added to the joys of exploration that made the dungeon crawl so popular.

Good point - in the end it should be all about the fun. Maybe we should throw away "old" and "new" as descriptors (which was the initial question of the OP) and just talk about what each of us finds enjoyable - from whatever era or system. I'll continue to sing the praises of C&C because it's what I like, but I will hold no grudges against those who like the WOTC flavors and complexities - as I said above, it's all a matter of taste and none of us is "right" or "true..." I like Tolkein, others don't - all cool by me... I prefer as few stats and as little crunch as possible so I can make my own way, others want the details - again, all good by me.

And all this is just the opinion of one dice-rolling geek who still gets a thrill from sitting at a table and rolling dice over an imaginary map of an imaginary world.

John

 

[DeadlyUematsu]

http://www.superdan.net/grtdnd/grtdnd1.html

I think of these points made in this essay when I think of old school.

Trollwad's points are also pretty good.

 

[Quasqueton]

What would you say to these concepts?

There have been more “old school style” adventures published in the last 5 years than there were published in the previous 25 years.

"Old school style" is more prevalent today than it ever has been.

Are these accurate statements? If so, what does it say about "old school" and "new school"?

Quasqueton

 

[Whisper72]

Well as to the remark that there is more old skool now then ever before, I disagree with, but this has to do with the way I look at defining Old Skool.

Imho it cannot be completely detached from the overall rulesset. Old Skool has to do with the era in which the ruleset was wonky and left a lot open to debate. The whole houserule thingy did not come about because DM's were so eager to create their own rules, but because it was kinda necessary. The cool thing about Old Skool play was that there were a lot more open ended issues from a rulesperspective point of view. The aforementioned breaking of rules by Old Skool modules, largely because there was not yet a full coherent rulesset. Thus, a module where there is a lot open ended (NOT plot wise, but in how to deal with stuff wise) and there is plenty room for the PC's to think stuff up, nay which even forces the players to think stuff up, to think out of the box so to say, to overcome otherwise seemingly impossible challenges, that is not covered by the rules as written.

This ties in to my idea that now much old skool is no longer possible, because of the completeness of the current rulesset. There are rules for everything, from farting to fighting, from casting to the chance you are succesful at getting a booger out of your nose. It is now very difficult to design a module where the players have a lot of room or even need to find options and solutions which are not somewhere covered in the rules.

That, to me, others may naturally disagree completely, is the essence of the Old Skool feel, where during the game the DM and the players had to hash out whether certain actions were allowed or not and which effects they would have. This (again IMHO etc.) is what created that vaunted 'sense of wonder', of the players (including the DM) needing to 'discover' and co-create not just the world, but the very rules themselves, as play went along.

Disclaimers for this all being my own opinion, other experience may be differen, past results are no guarantee for future returns on investment etc...

 

[Mycanid]

Oy vey ....

Well.... Let my start off by saying that there IS a distinct difference between "old" and "new" school rpg definitions. I say this not only because I have experienced the perceived difference and others have as well.

Having said that there (very generally!) seem to be two "camps" of gamers nowadays - those who have had an experience of feeling this and those who have not.

I should further add that this happens to people who have been playing for any length of time. I have had people ardently champion (or even generally lean) towards BOTH camps who have been playing since the late 70's or who have been playing in the last few years.

So then, I would say that the old/new school perception does, in fact, exist, but that it only exists in the experience of certain players and rpg content creators.

It then manifests itself in all aspects of the game: the writing and extrapolation of the rulesets, the playing and writing of adventures, the DM'ing, the playing, etc., etc., etc.

Two things follow: 1. Just because you yourself do not experience the dichotomy does not mean that it does not exist, and 2. Just because others do not experience what you experience does not somehow mean their play, products, etc. are "lesser" or "sub-standard" or the like. In this matter there are just a variety of people who are interedted in different aspects of the game.

So I would say that the old school and new school definitions are NOT meaningless - they reflect the playing experience of a certain group of gamers.

For me the most interesting thing, and this is solely on a personal level, is why some people do NOT have the same experience with the game as I have had. And I do not mean this in a way of criticism, but of curiosity.

 

[Xyanthon]

I'm not sure the definitions are meaningless, but they do seem to have a variation of meaning to different people. For example, when I think of old school gaming, I think of my early gaming experiences in the early 1980's with 1e AD&D and the Moldovay boxed sets. Now Old school to others certainly can extend back farther to OD&D and the like.

I find myself more attracted to products that have the same look and feel of the products that were released when I was a kid. That is not to say I don't like others (I have a pretty broad spectrum of interests gamewize). However, for me, the products that are being billed as having the "old school feel" such as C&C, DDC, OSRIC, Necro, etc. for the most part do. With these products I don't necessarily have to worry about the minutae of using mineratures in game (I can or not as I so choose, the earlier incarnations seemed to be less tactical in this regaurd, at least in my experience). The older rules just seemed to be more off the cuff and made room for more judgement calls by the DM. However, even when I play the more modern games I just tend to use whatever I like and disregard the rest. That works fine for me and I don't feel compelled to use every rule.

So in the end, yes, I think there is a line of distinction between what is old school and what is new school. However, the lines of demarcation tend to be subjective to the preson. As for me, well if I have to label myself one or the other, I guess I'd say I'm a middle school gamer. Not only was middle school the height of my gaming life, but more, I tend to like things about the new and the old styles of gaming. I do find myself most attracted to games/products that recreate the feel of the mid 1980's gaming scene but I'm not opposed or adverse to others. But when it comes down to it, I guess I'll just shut up, grab the dice bag and play.

 

[00Machado]

I'll opine that "old school" equals primarily dungeon crawl, often episodic adventures. And even ones that break that mold focus more on combat and tactical encounters than talking encounters, and an exploration of a new place as opposed to a plot that takes place in a well known location.

I would not call it "old school design".

I would call it harkening back to how we played in the day, before story was glorified above the simple pleasure of hanging out with friends and passing the time hunting for monsters and treasure.

I think Troll Lord's catch phrase gets it right with "First Edition Feel".

It's a vibe that you get, maybe helped along by a streamlining out of the superfluous setting plot in favor of the scenario plot.

It's about let's have the most fun in the adventure here and now. Not let's build up to some future 'reveal' of 'the coolest moment' later.

I say this having fallen into the trap of trying to make everything some big campaign epic earlier in my gaming days after getting caught up in story and "wouldn't it be cool to build up to this" campaign design, and losing sight of the uncomlicated fun that I started out enjoying.

That's my take on old school.

 

[00Machado]

Oh, and fewer things to look up. Ease of use of the rule system. Or simplified, if you prefer.

That's old school too.

Basic D&D, Star Wars D6, Marvel Super Heroes.

Though we also had Champions, GURPS and whatnot back then, the former systems set the tone for my gaming back then.

I didn't try the other systems until later.

And box sets. Box sets are old school.

 

[tx7321]

I think Old School is probably just using the rules as written in the orignal books and the kind of play that occured playing in the original modules. I think a good summary of these rules can be found in TLG's C&C and perhaps closer still in Osric. if you don't have copies of the original Gary Gygax books you can find them cheap on e-bay.

 

[Davelozzi]

And another Player’s “old school” experienced the full run of the Dragonlance series.

Certainly, opinions will vary quite a bit from person to person, but in my experience, it's pretty widely accepted that Dragonlance is not old school. If anything, the Dragonlance adventures were the death knell of old school as they marked a pronounced shift itowards modules that focused more on a fairly tight story and less on open-ended exploration. This isn't intended as a bash on Dragonlance at all, simply an observation that these adventures marked a significant shift in adventure design philosophy.

Disclaimer: I have only skimmed this thread very briefly before responding