D&D 4E One thing I miss from 4e...the Saving Throws

[Undrave]

The spells that aren't any different (effectively) from a swing of an axe are already treated that way, using attack resolution mechanics as opposed to saving throw mechanics.

There's also cantrips that use saves and non-cantrip that use attacks. It's a bit inconsistent.

 

[Dausuul]

Oh the confusion - it hurts!

When I said 40 years, I referred to the birth of role-playing games (D&D was created 42 years prior to 2016, when I made that comment).

The specific notion "Perception shouldn't be tied to Wisdom" (or, "Wisdom conflates Will and Perception") can be traced back far longer than the year 2001 (20 years from your comment) even if 40 years is likely technically wrong - Chaosium's RuneQuest was published in 1978 (so definitely 38 years if not 40).

RuneQuest was in many ways a reaction against Dungeons & Dragons. One of the changes was to institute a separate Perception score (thus splitting Wisdom into Will - or Power as it was named - and Perception). RQ Perception is modified by (later based on) the two attributes of Intelligence and Power but independent of either, precisely for the reasons discussed.

So no, I stand by my statement (which by the way is now 5 years old)

Ah, necro threads. I didn't even notice, though I should have checked when I saw the 4E tag.

Anyway: The complaint about conflating willpower and perception didn't exist 40 years ago, because AFAIK nobody was conflating those things then. D&D certainly was not--before 3E, perception was a mishmash of thief abilities and the surprise roll, with no relation to Wisdom.

The willpower/perception weirdness is an artifact of 3E's effort to replace AD&D's jungle of ad hoc mechanics with d20 rolls based on the six stats. Perception had to go somewhere, and Wisdom was the least-bad fit... but still pretty bad.

 

[billd91]

That's like saying doorknobs working well means it was a good idea to invent doors. Pretty sure the basics of the system were designed and then elements were 'hung' from it's 'hooks' afterward. Bardic Inspiration would have been different if they had went with defences.

But then it wouldn't have interact as well with skill checks/attacks. One or the other methods would have been a clunky add-on.

 

[Undrave]

But then it wouldn't have interact as well with skill checks/attacks. One or the other methods would have been a clunky add-on.

They probably would have ended up with Bardic Inspiration only working on attacks and nobody would have noticed. You can't use Bardic Inspiration on AC anyway so why should it be different for other attacks?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The spells that aren't any different (effectively) from a swing of an axe are already treated that way, using attack resolution mechanics as opposed to saving throw mechanics.

And that is a huge problem IMHO. WHY on earth do we have to remember which spells are saves and which are attacks, and then of course you have to remember which of six types of save it is, etc. This is an attack mechanic just inconveniently recast into a different form, it bites. It was much easier to remember how powers worked in 4e, they are all attacks, and the relevant defense was almost always pretty obvious. The whole thing stinks, and there was no good game design reason for it.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Ah, necro threads. I didn't even notice, though I should have checked when I saw the 4E tag.

Anyway: The complaint about conflating willpower and perception didn't exist 40 years ago, because AFAIK nobody was conflating those things then. D&D certainly was not--before 3E, perception was a mishmash of thief abilities and the surprise roll, with no relation to Wisdom.

The willpower/perception weirdness is an artifact of 3E's effort to replace AD&D's jungle of ad hoc mechanics with d20 rolls based on the six stats. Perception had to go somewhere, and Wisdom was the least-bad fit... but still pretty bad.

In 4e's case it is not such a big deal. Training with Perception is worth as much as a 20 Wisdom. Obviously a character with both high WIS AND Perception trained is the very best, but even a 10 WIS thief can easily have a pretty sharp eye (and there are certainly feats and whatnot that provide added bonuses). In the case of 5e, well, you're just stuck with the oddity, though training does help some.

 

[tetrasodium]

And that is a huge problem IMHO. WHY on earth do we have to remember which spells are saves and which are attacks, and then of course you have to remember which of six types of save it is, etc. This is an attack mechanic just inconveniently recast into a different form, it bites. It was much easier to remember how powers worked in 4e, they are all attacks, and the relevant defense was almost always pretty obvious. The whole thing stinks, and there was no good game design reason for it.

That's something important that 5e lost from past editions. "Here's this monster, guess the saving throw you should target" is so much different from "here's this monster, your probably about certain the good & bad saves on top of being pretty certain about the poor save too" with 6 saves it's a crapshoot & getting it right/wrong probably doesn't make much difference either

 

[CapnZapp]

Ah, necro threads. I didn't even notice, though I should have checked when I saw the 4E tag.

Anyway: The complaint about conflating willpower and perception didn't exist 40 years ago, because AFAIK nobody was conflating those things then. D&D certainly was not--before 3E, perception was a mishmash of thief abilities and the surprise roll, with no relation to Wisdom.

The willpower/perception weirdness is an artifact of 3E's effort to replace AD&D's jungle of ad hoc mechanics with d20 rolls based on the six stats. Perception had to go somewhere, and Wisdom was the least-bad fit... but still pretty bad.

The argument "Perception should have been its own ability score" has been around since, well, Perception was made dependent on another score, such as Intelligence or Wisdom.

This discussion has been around well before D&D 3rd edition. As i have already said, maybe not a full 40 years, but close.

 

[dave2008]

And that is a huge problem IMHO. WHY on earth do we have to remember which spells are saves and which are attacks, and then of course you have to remember which of six types of save it is, etc.

nostalgia.
4e was better in this regard as a game mechanic, but I understand designing for nostalgia and there is some logic to things being a saving throw instead of an attack.

 

[Mannahnin]

The argument "Perception should have been its own ability score" has been around since, well, Perception was made dependent on another score, such as Intelligence or Wisdom.

This discussion has been around well before D&D 3rd edition. As i have already said, maybe not a full 40 years, but close.

Yup. Dragon Magazine 133 (May 1988) has a whole article for Perception as another ability score, but certainly people made house rules earlier than that.