D&D 4E One thing I miss from 4e...the Saving Throws

[tetrasodium]

I don't really like 5e saves too much & they are made more obnoxious by making it so they aren't really something you can target any more. Take a troll, in the past a caster could make a reasonable guess at an opponent's weak save(s) & it made a big difference. Now you might see a few points of spread sure, but the caster doesn't feel like there's much reason or benefit to do anything but not target an obvious save if there even is one

 

[Dausuul]

This complaint is 40 years old by now. I'm certainly too old to have it one more time...

It's 20 years old, not 40. I have no great desire to return to the days of "save vs. dragon breath," but I sure wouldn't mind abolishing the dependence of saves on stats.

Still, you're not wrong that this is a very long-running debate.

 

[Dausuul]

I don't think we should expect a balanced RPG to "make sense." Real life is not balanced, and all "attributes" are not of equal utility.

Hit points.

That is all I have to say about that line of argument.

 

[FarBeyondC]

That makes some sense when your Wizard is a Wizard for 5 seconds a day.

But characters in 5e can hand out magical attacks like a bowling player hands out unnecessary high fives. Magical effects happen ALL the time in modern versions of the game. It make more sense to treat them as nothing any different than a swing of an axe.

Of course, saying that chuffs at the ego of players who play Wizard to be SPECIAL.

I, too, think the Saving Throws return is 100% tradition with no deeper consideration. Not that you can't make a case for saving throws on OTHER grounds, but just at the 5e didn't even bother debating the point.

The spells that aren't any different (effectively) from a swing of an axe are already treated that way, using attack resolution mechanics as opposed to saving throw mechanics.

 

[FarBeyondC]

It seems I accidentally double posted.

 

[Dausuul]

The spells that aren't any different (effectively) from a swing of an axe are already treated that way, using attack resolution mechanics as opposed to saving throw mechanics.

Many of a wizard's damage-dealing cantrips call for saving throws rather than attack rolls.

 

[CapnZapp]

It's 20 years old, not 40. I have no great desire to return to the days of "save vs. dragon breath," but I sure wouldn't mind abolishing the dependence of saves on stats.

Still, you're not wrong that this is a very long-running debate.

Oh the confusion - it hurts!

When I said 40 years, I referred to the birth of role-playing games (D&D was created 42 years prior to 2016, when I made that comment).

The specific notion "Perception shouldn't be tied to Wisdom" (or, "Wisdom conflates Will and Perception") can be traced back far longer than the year 2001 (20 years from your comment) even if 40 years is likely technically wrong - Chaosium's RuneQuest was published in 1978 (so definitely 38 years if not 40).

RuneQuest was in many ways a reaction against Dungeons & Dragons. One of the changes was to institute a separate Perception score (thus splitting Wisdom into Will - or Power as it was named - and Perception). RQ Perception is modified by (later based on) the two attributes of Intelligence and Power but independent of either, precisely for the reasons discussed.

So no, I stand by my statement (which by the way is now 5 years old)

 

[CapnZapp]

RuneQuest 1st edition page 13, Chaosium 1978

 

[Mannahnin]

A great reference, but was Wisdom really being tied to perception already at that point? I don't remember that being a thing in D&D formally before 3rd ed. Did they maybe split out Perception into a sub-attribute in one of the 2.5 books like Skills & Powers? I never really played with those.

The closest concepts originally were finding secret doors (which Elves got a bonus at), and Hear Noise, which IIRC Elves and Halflings got a bonus at, and Thieves had as a skill. Back in the 80s (and no doubt 70s, but I only started in the 80s) folks experimented with Perception as a whole separate ability score, as in the "Notice Anything Different?" article from Dragon 133.

 

[Undrave]

I don't think it's simply return to tradition with no deeper consideration. Inspiration, bardic inspiration, bless - all work really well under direction of the player making a saving throw roll.

That's like saying doorknobs working well means it was a good idea to invent doors. Pretty sure the basics of the system were designed and then elements were 'hung' from it's 'hooks' afterward. Bardic Inspiration would have been different if they had went with defences.