Orb spells vs anti-magic?

[StreamOfTheSky]

I made the orb spells evocations, still not allowing SR (because...that's the main reason they exist...), in my games. Well, my group as a whole did. It's not broken, helps out evocation school quite a bit, and helps eliminate this kind of problem.

I could see the case for acid orb being conjuration, since there are a lot of creation spells that create non-magical acid to lob at an enemy, which I really don't have a problem with working through an AMF.

Crystal shard would be able to be fired into the AMF just fine. A better defense would be a lesser globe of invulnerability to stop that. Even with 20 PP, it's still only level 1.

 

[gamecat]

I made the orb spells evocations, still not allowing SR (because...that's the main reason they exist...), in my games. Well, my group as a whole did. It's not broken, helps out evocation school quite a bit, and helps eliminate this kind of problem.

I could see the case for acid orb being conjuration, since there are a lot of creation spells that create non-magical acid to lob at an enemy, which I really don't have a problem with working through an AMF.

Crystal shard would be able to be fired into the AMF just fine. A better defense would be a lesser globe of invulnerability to stop that. Even with 20 PP, it's still only level 1.

If I remember correctly, they were printed as evocations in Tome and Blood.

 

[kyrand]

The language for antimagic field was designed before the orbs came along so I think, when it was written, it didn't anticipate letting in a direct magical attack of that nature. Maybe the orbs were shifted from evocation to conjuration when Tome and Blood got worked over into Complete Arcane specifically for that sort of purpose. But I think it was a bad idea, leading to far too many arguments about the appropriate design of orb spells.
I notice also that the Rules Compendium makes no mention of direct attack conjuration spells, something that would have made for an excellent clarification of the issue.

Actually, Melf's Acid Arrow was in the PHB, and (according to the SRD) works the same as the orb spells for this purpose (with the addition of the continuous acid melting, of course).

 

[NewJeffCT]

Crystal shard would be able to be fired into the AMF just fine. A better defense would be a lesser globe of invulnerability to stop that. Even with 20 PP, it's still only level 1.

True - but, the guy running the NPC cleric/paladin cast AMF for the reason of hopefully being able to nullify one of the big 3 opponents with the field - the cleric, sorcerer or psion. The AMF field was able to drop the flying psion (who was only 10 feet in the air, thus vulnerable to an AMF that would extend up 18 feet) right into the lap of the cleric/paladin & the dwarf fighter.

Unfortunately, they forgot to grapple or trip the fallen halfling psion and instead struck him with two regular AoOs as he stood up... If either of them had Combat Reflexes, they could have gotten another AoO as he moved away and possibly dropped the halfling if they got a crit (whose Vigor buff & Amulet of Health were temporarily nullified in the AMF)

 

[billd91]

Actually, Melf's Acid Arrow was in the PHB, and (according to the SRD) works the same as the orb spells for this purpose (with the addition of the continuous acid melting, of course).

But Melf's Acid Arrow isn't an instantaneous conjuration spell, so by the wording of the Antimagic Field spell, that spell is suppressed. It just goes to show that over-reliance on the specific wording of the RAW in this case doesn't give a whole lot of insight into what the full intention of how all of these spells are supposed to work together.

 

[pawsplay]

Golems aren't non-magical, it's just that anti-magic field actually only works on magic of a certain tier. It does not work on artifacts, does not work well on epic spells, and other odd cases. The inherent animation of a golem is stronger than an ordinary magic item, just as whatever makes a beholder float is more intrinsic than than a spell or supernatural ability. Anti-magic field is not a "real world physics now apply" field, it only cancels certain effects.

As far as the orbs go... orb of force should not be a conjuration. Given that it is, assume the force is actual kinetic energy and works, because that's how the RAW works out.

 

[kyrand]

But Melf's Acid Arrow isn't an instantaneous conjuration spell, so by the wording of the Antimagic Field spell, that spell is suppressed. It just goes to show that over-reliance on the specific wording of the RAW in this case doesn't give a whole lot of insight into what the full intention of how all of these spells are supposed to work together.

... Of course I would forget to check the duration. My mistake, nothing to see here.

 

[NewJeffCT]

good catch - so, 0 level acid splash can penetrate the AMF, but not level 2 Acid Arrow. Level 6 Acid Storm from the SpC could as well, as it is an instantaneous conjuration.

 

[billd91]

Frankly, they weren't even thinking about acid splash when that bit of text about instantaneous conjuration spells appeared. It's in the 3.0 version of antimagic field - and acid splash didn't appear in the PH until 3.5.

I'd love to see detailed designer notes for 3.5, the core rules and Complete books, to see what they were thinking about a lot of things.

 

[Deset Gled]

It just goes to show that over-reliance on the specific wording of the RAW in this case doesn't give a whole lot of insight into what the full intention of how all of these spells are supposed to work together.

The brief line in the AMF spell description is actually just a summation of the nature of conjuration spells. From the Spell Descriptions section of the SRD:

Conjuration

Creation: A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates (subject to the limits noted above). If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.

I think this gives a whole lot of insight into how the Conjuration (Creation) spells are supposed to work, and gives a perfect framework for how they interact with an AMF. It really makes a lot of sense... until you try and justify how the orb spells are a instantaneous creation spell.