Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder 2 Detect Magic & Item ID ?

[Philip Benz]

Yow! Thread necromancy is a forbidden art!

This said, I don't find the current PF2 detect and identify magic paradigm to be entirely untenable, as long as the DM bends the rules ever so slightly.

The Detect magic cantrip, at low levels, only says "yes, within 30' there is magic" or "no", allowing you to ignore known magic on you and your party.

The Read aura cantrip requires you to focus on an object within 30' to know "yes/no, is it magical?" and what school.

The Identify magic skill action requires that you've already determined an object or location is magical, and take 10 minutes and succeed your skill check, in order to identify an item and know how to use it.

So it's a lot harder than in PF1. A lot. But the PF1 detect magic cantrip was far too powerful and easily exploitable, so this is a good thing.

The PF2 detect magic paradigm requires you to guess an object is magical based on visual cues or prior information, then test if it's magical or not, then take the time to understand how this thing works. It also requires the spellcaster to carry around two magic detection cantrips instead of one.

The DM can finesse this in several ways without breaking it.
1) The DM can have some items (particularly plot macguffins) telepathically communicate its use and function to a person holding it.
2) Some items' functions become obvious when worn - slip on that ring of invisibility, and you become invisible.
3) Some items can be used effectively without knowing the full extent and nature of their powers, like a magic sword. But that puts an extra book-keeping burden on the DM, until such time as enough time has passed to reveal the exact numerical values of said powers.

 

[CapnZapp]

Yow! Thread necromancy is a forbidden art!

That is why thread necromancers are so feared and secretly admired...!

This said, I don't find the current PF2 detect and identify magic paradigm to be entirely untenable, as long as the DM bends the rules ever so slightly.

Agreed.

Guess I'm just beefin' against the RAW inflexibility: no Identify spell (not even an Uncommon one that any GM who's fine with the system as written can just never introduce), no provision for faster identifying (there are Wizard feats that make it faster, so by houseruling you invalidate core game elements)...

 

[kenada]

Guess I'm just beefin' against the RAW inflexibility: no Identify spell (not even an Uncommon one that any GM who's fine with the system as written can just never introduce)

I was surprised by the lack of identify. Maybe Paizo feels like it’s a poor option? I don’t know, but I liked that PCs could decide whether they wanted to spend resources to identify an item right away.

no provision for faster identifying (there are Wizard feats that make it faster, so by houseruling you invalidate core game elements)...

House rules always run that risk. However, Quick Identification is a general skill feat, so stomping on its toes seems a little less egregious than negating a class feat (due to the limited number of class feats currently).

To your point earlier about ‘mandatory’ exploration activities between encounters, I think the reason they’re there is the ceremony of doing them. They convey a sense of verisimilitude or realism or simulation or whatever, so people can make decisions like their PCs would be making. Otherwise, people would probably complain that Paizo solved the CLW problem by turning PF2 into 4e or a video game or something equally dumb. It’s easy enough to house rule those things away if they’re not a good fit for one’s game.

Also, thank you for making me annoyed about needing a check to identify magic items. I’m fine with the gameplay of it, but knowledge checks against the level-based DC table always feel like crapshoots, and my players don’t like how often they seem to fail. I’ll have to see if the approach I’m exploring for Recall Knowledge also works for Identify Magic, though I’m not sure I want to completely lose the level-based approach.

PF1 also required a check, but I suspect many people just took 10 (even if that was not technically allowed). Assurance would work in PF2, but I’m not sure it’s worth the cost just for Identify Magic. Maybe in combination with other uses of Identify Magic and Recall Knowledge? Still seems a stretch, though I do have one player who took Assurance (Nature), but he also has Natural Medicine, so it’s more of a side effect that he can use Assurance to Recall Knowledge or Identify Magic.

 

[Philip Benz]

no Identify spell (not even an Uncommon one that any GM who's fine with the system as written can just never introduce), no provision for faster identifying (there are Wizard feats that make it faster, so by houseruling you invalidate core game elements)...

But... is that a feature or a bug? You no longer need a spell to identify a magic item, just 10 minutes and a good skill check roll. Sure, the PF1 Identify spell only required a single action, but as Kenada pointed out, there is a skill feat that can reduce that 10 minutes to one minute (10 rounds) or later on to a single round or a single action.

Rather than requiring one of a very limited number of available spells or spell slots, you use your skills to identify magic items. Not necessarily a bad change. Plus, there's a built-in cool-off period before eventual retries, linked to your degree of success or failure.

The DC to identify items can be fairly difficult, since you no longer have umpteen ways to boost your skill check rolls. But unless you get a critical failure, you can try again later.

 

[CapnZapp]

Also, thank you for making me annoyed about needing a check to identify magic items. I’m fine with the gameplay of it, but knowledge checks against the level-based DC table always feel like crapshoots, and my players don’t like how often they seem to fail.

You're welcome.

Either you have all the time in the world (hours) and then why even roll?

Or you don't. If there's only one party member able to identify a particular object and the probability of success is 50% then it's still a 12,5% probability you haven't succeeded even after 30 minutes.

Having a rule that says "identifying items take anywhere from 10 to 40 minutes" makes me very irritated. It means you can't tell stories where an item is found and then used right after, simply because the mechanics get in the way. But mostly why all that dice rolling as if it was in any way shape or form interesting to have this variance. Also the way you're asked to make a game out of each and every breather between encounters. Being asked whether you fancy your chances of doing something useful in, say, 20 minutes of downtime as opposed to taking some other 10-minute activity is...

...exhausting, is the only word I can think of.

 

[CapnZapp]

But... is that a feature or a bug? You no longer need a spell to identify a magic item, just 10 minutes and a good skill check roll.

 

[Philip Benz]

It means you can't tell stories where an item is found and then used right after, simply because the mechanics get in the way.

Pffft! That's absurd, Cap'n, and you know it.

Why?

• Many items have a form that allows them to be used or tried out without knowing anything about them, like weapons, rings or other worn items (as long as they don't have a command word).
• There are many DM plotstrings that can be pulled so that the PC knows to shout "Buttercup!" at the right moment.
• In some cases the PCs may have prior knowledge about the activation method for a variety of reasons.

Sure a few old grognards might be afraid to wear an item that might be cursed, but honestly, how often do cursed items pop up in your game?

Lastly, there is something vaguely disturbing about the presence of a cute little girl pic in a forum largely frequented by lonely, frustrated old men. <g>

 

[CapnZapp]

Lastly, there is something vaguely disturbing about the presence of a cute little girl pic in a forum largely frequented by lonely, frustrated old men.

That's called projection, Philip, and you should probably be a bit careful until you've read up on the concept...

 

[kenada]

Sure a few old grognards might be afraid to wear an item that might be cursed, but honestly, how often do cursed items pop up in your game?

Fortunately, the GMG has some awesome cursed items just begging to be given out.

 

[FrozenNorth]

A lot of Paizo adventures have treasure tucked away in odd places. Finding this loot is a minigame in itself. Or it ought to be - in almost every case some magic is involved, so a quick Detect Magic bypasses the search. I think the new Detect Magic is to get back to some searching - either New School with die rolls, or Old School where you actually say what you do to look. Both are better than the Detect magic bypass.

Why would anyone want to bypass a time-consuming and uninteresting portion of the game? Especially when playing in 3-hour blocks over a VTT? Pshaw, some people!