Pathfinder 2E's New Death & Dying Rules; More on Resonance

It's another day, and that means another round of Pathfinder 2nd Edition News! Today's menu includes more discussion on resonance, followed by the main course -- the new rules for death & dying! All added, as ever, to the Pathfinder 2nd Edition Compiled Info Page!

Photo by Paizo

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• There are Pathfinder Playtest pro-order posters at the GAMA trade show. See above! And below...
• Gnome Stew reported on the Future of Pathfinder seminar at Gary Con. Mainly stuff we've heard before, but there are some new tidbits:
  • Shadow of the Demon Lord, white-box D&D, Magic: the Gathering, Tales from the Loop, and Star Trek Adventures were all referenced during development.
  • The item (shield) damage system has a name -- it's called "dented".
  • Some "signature gear" can level up with your character.
  • "Background will grant a specific Lore, which is similar to a specialized knowledge skill, such as Lore—Alcohol being granted to a character with barkeep as a background".
• Resonance proved divisive yesterday.
  • Jason Bulmahn weighed in on the heated discussion -- "Hey there all! Let's all just take a breath here before things get too heated. Resonance is a system that we knew was going to come with some controversy. It's really hard to give you a full sense of what the system allows us to do with the design space without going on a deep dive on magic items. This is a topic we are going to hit soon, so hang in there. I will say this before I go to run more demos at GAMA. Players have rarely run out of resonance in our games, and there is a lot more healing to go around than you might think."
  • Class features don't use Resonance -- "We avoided making class features that use Resonance Points unless they're directly tied to items. Resonance is a resource for items thematically and specifically. If you have abilities from a bloodline, you'll have to pay for those some other way..." (Bonner)
  • "...we've had some delightful occultist-based thought experiments based on some of these ideas as the "kings of resonance."[FONT=&amp] (Seifter)[/FONT]
  • Bulmahn commented -- "Hmm... I keep seeing posts that tracking one pool of points is too fiddly. It's odd, considering that it's meant to replace a system where everything had its own personal system of usage with times per day, total charges, and time based limits. Of course, I have plenty of reservations about this particular mechanic. We're definitely pushing the envelope here, but fiddly is not the complaint I expected to see so frequently."
• New Dying Rules! "RumpinRufus" reported on how they worked in the live streamed game at the GAMA trade show:
  • There are no negative hit points - if you take damage equal or greater than your HP, you go down to 0 HP and get the Dying 1 condition.
  • If a crit knocks you to 0, you gain Dying 2 instead of Dying 1.
  • Each round, you must make a save to stabilize. The save DC is based off the enemy - a boss may have a higher death DC than a mook, so you are more likely to be killed by bosses.
  • If you reach Dying 4, then you are dead.
  • If you make the stabilize check, you gain a hit point, but are still Dying. If you make another save at 1 HP, you are no longer Dying, and you regain consciousness.
  • If an ally heals you while you are Dying, you still have the Dying condition, even though you have positive HP. You still need to make a stabilize check to regain consciousness. But, once your HP is positive, you are no longer at danger of death from failing your checks - failing a stabilize check just means you stay unconscious.
  • The Stabilize cantrip puts you at 1 HP.
  • Mark Seifter further added -- "If you get well and truly annihilated by an attack, you die instantly. Even a 1st PC could probably insta-kill a kobold grandmother, even if the GM chose for full tracking of unconscious and dying NPCs."
• Erik Mona on monster books again, and how self-contained stat blocks will be -- "I don't think we've fully committed one way or the other yet. The playtest monster book is going to be mega stat block dump without a lot of description of what, say, a skeleton looks like or eats. As for special abilities and how they're formatted, while I know the design team has been hard at work on this stuff, I haven't interacted with it too much yet (I just finished going through magic items last night!)."
• Both Erik Mona and James Jacobs feel strongly about the presence of more outsider types on the summoning lists -- "No, actually, James Jacobs and I also feel very strongly about this. Very strongly."
• Logan Bonner comments on complexity, options, and the 'cognitive load' -- "We're keeping it in mind for sure. That's one reason we've rejiggered the number of bonus types, altered the action economy to make choice clearer, and (at least mostly) made it so you have options for static feats instead of only giving options to expand your list of actions. We'll see in the playtest whether that mix is right."
• Logan Bonner informs us that coffee and tea have been added to the Playtest Rulebook.
• Mark Seifter on how corruption could work "...gaining a corruption could unlock a new set of ancestry feats, as your fundamental nature has shifted."

Photo by Paizo
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[Arakasius]

Because in PF1 being a magical Christmas tree is the only way to keep your character relevant. The big 6 are absolutely necessary as are other items. Also APs and such have a glut of magic items, so you can’t help but be inundated with them. It’s how PF1 was designed and how the APs are written. Sure I could just not take the loot given from adventures, but that seems kind of silly. So instead you get this situation where you have tons of items that might be useful in some specific situation that likely never comes up along with your magic weapon, armor, cloak, belt, headband, two rings and a neckpiece. Even without any fluff items you can’t help but be a Christmas tree, and pf has a ton of fluff items.

 

[Shasarak]

So you say that you want a low magic game and you also want to use tons of items.

I see how that could be a problem for you.

 

[Arakasius]

I don't want to use those items, so I'm not sure why you're interpreting my post that way. It's just they're necessary for the math of the game to work for your saves/to hit to keep up. That is why pathfinder unchained came out with automated progression system for those stats so you can get rid of those items.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/unchained-rules/automatic-bonus-progression/

This is a good optional rule and PF2 seems to be taking a lot of unchained to heart in making PF2.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

So you say that you want a low magic game and you also want to use tons of items.

The player doesn't want those items, because they would rather play in a lower-magic setting.

The character has to deal with the reality that they live in a world where there is a lot of magic and where you must cover yourself in magical trinkets in order to survive, regardless of their personal feelings on the topic, so the player is carried along for the ride.

 

[Shasarak]

The player doesn't want those items, because they would rather play in a lower-magic setting.

So then play in a lower magic setting. I have seen [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] talk about his low magic Primeval Thule setting so it is possible. Golarion and the Forgotten Realms are not low magic settings though.

The character has to deal with the reality that they live in a world where there is a lot of magic and where you must cover yourself in magical trinkets in order to survive, regardless of their personal feelings on the topic, so the player is carried along for the ride.

The fact is that you do not need all of that stuff. Sure you will not get a bonus to your saves because you dont have a magic cloak but that means you have to rely on your characters abilities to survive - just like [MENTION=6944960]Arakasius[/MENTION] claims that he wants.

Personally I do not know why you would expect that it would be just as easy to defeat a Dragon while using your Dads old sword that he made from a plow as it would while using Excalibur. You could use the Pathfinder Unchained rules if you still want your bonuses without "using" magic.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

The fact is that you do not need all of that stuff. Sure you will not get a bonus to your saves because you dont have a magic cloak but that means you have to rely on your characters abilities to survive - just like [MENTION=6944960]Arakasius[/MENTION] claims that he wants.

You only need that stuff if you want to not die.

Saying that I would prefer to survive by my own abilities could, perhaps, better be phrased by saying that I would prefer if my own abilities were sufficient to allow me to survive. Surviving through the use of magic items is still preferable to not surviving, though, which is currently the only alternative under the PF1 ruleset.

Golarion and the Forgotten Realms are not low magic settings though.

Golarion is not a low-magic setting under the PF1 ruleset, but it's possibly that it might be lower-magic under the PF2 ruleset, in much the same way that the magic level of the Forgotten Realms has fluctuated over time and editions.

 

[Shasarak]

You only need that stuff if you want to not die.

Characters fail their saves all the time without dying. Every character has a built in poor save already so obviously you are expected to not make your save all the time.

Saying that I would prefer to survive by my own abilities could, perhaps, better be phrased by saying that I would prefer if my own abilities were sufficient to allow me to survive. Surviving through the use of magic items is still preferable to not surviving, though, which is currently the only alternative under the PF1 ruleset.

I remember earlier editions of the game where you literally could not damage a creature unless you were using magic so although DnD has never been about Muggles vs Dragons, it is much easier to use the bent spoon you picked up at 1st level then it used to be.

Golarion is not a low-magic setting under the PF1 ruleset, but it's possibly that it might be lower-magic under the PF2 ruleset, in much the same way that the magic level of the Forgotten Realms has fluctuated over time and editions.

There has never been a low magic Forgotten Realms. Every Realms Shaking Event always replaced one sort of magic with another.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Characters fail their saves all the time without dying. Every character has a built in poor save already so obviously you are expected to not make your save all the time.

I'll tell you what. Let's both run the same level 15 fighter through a dungeon, except mine will have level-appropriate wealth and yours can have starting equipment, and we'll see who survives longer. If yours lasts anywhere close to as long as mine does, then I'll concede that magical items aren't absolutely mandatory in PF1.

There has never been a low magic Forgotten Realms. Every Realms Shaking Event always replaced one sort of magic with another.

That's really a matter of perspective. The Forgotten Realms of 5E is a vastly different place from the Forgotten Realms of 2E or 4E, and at least one of those editions allows you to adventure successfully without relying on magic.

 

[Charlaquin]

The fact is, PF1’s math makes it very difficult to run a low magic campaign in which the PCs can be expected to triumph over the monsters, particularly at higher levels. Sometimes that’s what you want in a low-magic setting. Sometimes you want a world where adventuring is an extremely dangerous prospect and you survive past 6th level only by a combination of excellent tactics and no small amount of luck. But sometimes you want to play in a world where ordinary people are capable of extraordinary things simply through enough perserverence and training. And that’s possible to pull off, but only with a lot of custom-designed monsters and/or rules hacks like Unchained progression. Some folks would like a system where that’s easier to orchestrate. Hopefully PF2 will be able to provide that, without taking away the ability to play a high magic campaign without having to do a similar amount of extra work. One way to do this would be by removing the numerical bonuses to saves, AC, and accuracy from magic items. Focus the magic items more on the abilities they grant than on statical boosts. Then DMs who want to hand out tons of magical trinkets can do so without putting their PCs way ahead of the expected number progression curve, DMs who only want to include a few extremely rare magical artifacts can do so without putting their PCs similarly behind the curve, and DMs who want their PCs to consistently be behind or ahead of the curve can do so with their encounter building, pitting them against monsters either too strong or too many for the players to be able to handle without flawless planning and lucky rolls. That seems to be the designers’ intent behind removing things like Rings of Protection from the game.

 

[Arakasius]

It seems you haven’t played high level PF which is very much rocket tag. If you don’t want to die then you need the magical items otherwise your stats just don’t hold up. So yes against powerful save or suck spells that +3-5 saves actually is a huge difference. Same with attack bonuses. Same with stars. I could agree many clauses can get by without the AC boosters, but the other ones are pretty much mandatory. If you go without those items and don’t use unchaineds progression you’re at a much higher risk of death/tpk when running adventures.