Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder Advanced Player's Guide Preview

[Hunter In Darkness]

The claim is that the option to gain another spell known is notably better than the option to take 1 hit point.

So is the Gnome bard ability. I am just not seeing the issue, from the three we have been shown it it easy to get the feel the new options are all or mostly better on some levels then the HP or skill point.

But better is subjective as sometimes you want that skill point and others ya want the HP. Sure you can take toughness and take false life, but ya can do that now with the HP and the guy that does will always have more then he who does not. At no time is the new ability a no brainier for every build and every human sorcerer and sure as hell not for every level.

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

We don't know what favored perks other races will get. Since humans are the only race to get one for every class it seems safe to assume that most won't get anything new for sorcerer at all. If they are fixing the class, then fix the class. Don't fix the class *for human PCs*.

I didn't read this as fixing the class at all. I read this as fixing the race. Looked to me like the point was that humans are getting a boost, and they just used the Sorcerer option as one example of that.

 

[billd91]

But better is subjective as sometimes you want that skill point and others ya want the HP. Sure you can take toughness and take false life, but ya can do that now with the HP and the guy that does will always have more then he who does not. At no time is the new ability a no brainier for every build and every human sorcerer and sure as hell not for every level.

Subjectivity is an important point here. 20 hp is nothing to sneeze at, but it really does take a while for the HP to validate themselves as an attractive choice. Taking +1 HP for one level? Eh. They take a lot of levels to really build up but once they do, it's notable. The spells pay off right away. But, in the long run, will that strategy pay off as much as the +level in HP? I suppose it depends on how much the sorcerer gets knocked around while on adventure.

I can say one thing, I think these options balance better against each other in games where the HP are rolled. A few bad rolls and the sorcerer may really want the extra HP.

 

[grrtigger]

I didn't read this as fixing the class at all. I read this as fixing the race. Looked to me like the point was that humans are getting a boost, and they just used the Sorcerer option as one example of that.

Seems to me that this may be a way of moving back toward certain races favoring specific classes, as was done with favored classes in 3.5 vs the generic "+1 HP / SP" in PFRPG. I'm personally fine with that, and agree that some options for some races taking levels in particular classes will be better for some players than the generic "+1 HP / SP" bonus your favored class levels currently grant in the game. I don't feel this is necessarily a bad thing.

 

[Mon]

So is the Gnome bard ability. I am just not seeing the issue, from the three we have been shown it it easy to get the feel the new options are all or mostly better on some levels then the HP or skill point.

But better is subjective as sometimes you want that skill point and others ya want the HP. Sure you can take toughness and take false life, but ya can do that now with the HP and the guy that does will always have more then he who does not. At no time is the new ability a no brainier for every build and every human sorcerer and sure as hell not for every level.

So, just take false life then and forget about toughness. That way you get the hit points and 19 other spells. Now you have what he has plus more stuff. i.e. you're better than him.

Hell, take levitate, invisibility, charm person, knock, or any number of other "like a skill but better" spells as well. Then choose 18 other spells. Now you have what the hp guy has AND what the skill guy has. Plus more stuff. I.e. you're better than both of them.

When you meet the guy who has the hp and false life, you're worse than him by 1-20 hp depending on level. At whatever level you're playing, that's not even one hit's worth of damage and meanwhile he can't do 1-20 other cool things that either make him more powerful and/or might save his life when 1-20 measly hp are not enough.

At first level, an at-will cantrip > 1hp... and it only gets better from there. When you reach the point where you're choosing between 1 bonus hp and glitterdust, or haste, or dragon form, or polymorph any object, you've gotta ask yourself... why am I even pondering this choice?

About the only levels where the hp/skill point might be better is 2nd/3rd because yet another cantrip at that point is nothing much.

(Remember, not saying it is overpowered, just a better option than a hp or a skill point).

Re: The gnome bard ability
Yeah, it is probably better too. But not nearly as "better" as the spells dealie for sorcerers. Bards reach the 20s for rounds/day fairly quickly at which point they'll be able to have music up for almost all of almost every fight and don't really get much out of more rounds.

 

[BryonD]

So is the Gnome bard ability. I am just not seeing the issue

The issue is that these options are more powerful. It is hard to grasp how you can agree with a point and claim to not see it at the same time.

The bard option is certainly too good also. Not as bad, but too good.

Perhaps you are simply saying that there is nothing wrong with power creep. I disagree with that position if you are taking it. And I do not think there is much evidence that power creep is seen as a good thing overall.

As to subjective assessment, sure. A given player could certainly want an objectively less powerful option for personal subjective reasons. That in no way makes the more powerful option not be power creep or power creep be not bad.

 

[BryonD]

Seems to me that this may be a way of moving back toward certain races favoring specific classes, as was done with favored classes in 3.5 vs the generic "+1 HP / SP" in PFRPG. I'm personally fine with that, and agree that some options for some races taking levels in particular classes will be better for some players than the generic "+1 HP / SP" bonus your favored class levels currently grant in the game. I don't feel this is necessarily a bad thing.

I completely agree with the sentiment. I don't think the 3x xp penalty approach worked well. I have a very old personal house rule sheet that, for example, allowed dwarf fighters to get +1 hp per level. So I was happy to see the early pf version and disappointed when they changed it to pickaclass. I would like to see more preference. That is a good thing. But power creep is not the way to do it. Power creep is bad.

 

[BryonD]

I didn't read this as fixing the class at all. I read this as fixing the race. Looked to me like the point was that humans are getting a boost, and they just used the Sorcerer option as one example of that.

Heh. I would again disagree they need it. But fine, that is an ok way to look at it. And if paizo said that this is why they did it, as an inentional buff, then I would be less concerned.

Continuing to try to improve balance around a set point is fine. Power creep is bad.

 

[joebobodo]

I guess the main reason I don't understand all of the hubbub is this:

These options are SUPPOSED to be at least a little more attractive than the HP/SP. That's part of the incentive to play the iconic race/class combos that they are portraying here with this new take on "favored classes." Much like the HP/SP option is an incentive boost to focus more on your favored class, this additional boost is available to those who limit themselves even further.

As far as I'm concerned, and from what little we've seen, Paizo have performed a remarkable feat by capturing the flavor of these iconic combinations and giving them the right amount of boost WITHOUT adding power creep/game breakery.

 

[BryonD]

These options are SUPPOSED to be at least a little more attractive than the HP/SP.

No they are not, the attraction is supposed to be a unique ability, not more power.

And Jason is very specifically disagreeing with you. He says that they are not intended to be more powerful and that, according to him, they are not more powerful.

I'll readily give you flavor. I wish the core favored options had been in tune with this flavor.

It is power creep. I don't think anyone is saying "game broken" (other than defenders substituting that term in). The eventual result of power creep is that everything breaks down, but there is a lot of space between here and there. But power creep does more harm than good, even in the medium term. A game doesn't need to be broken to be sub-optimal.