Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder Advanced Player's Guide Preview

[joebobodo]

I think I may have mispoke in my post. I intentionally did not use the words "more powerful" as you put, because that was not what I was trying to get at. My focus was on the phrase "more attractive." I read your back and forth with Jason on the Paizo boards, and this is my opinion on the matter, gleaned from that discussion. I think my use of the term "boost," however, may have been, understandably, misinterpreted beyond my meaning. Allow me to rephrase:

"These options are SUPPOSED to be at least a little more attractive than the HP/SP. That's part of the incentive to play the iconic race/class combos that they are portraying here with this new take on "favored classes." Much like the HP/SP option is an incentive to focus more on your favored class, this additional option is available to those who limit themselves even further.

As far as I'm concerned, and from what little we've seen, Paizo have performed a remarkable feat by capturing the flavor of these iconic combincations, and given them the right amount of incentive WITHOUT adding power creep/game breakery."

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

Power Creep

The problem is, power creep is an area where Paizo and its fans have divergent interests. Power creep is good for Paizo, because it provides incentives to buy new books. It's bad for the rest of us, because

1) we have to buy new books, and
2) it makes existing characters feel shortchanged and
3) it creates headaches for DMs who want to run older adventures, which were balanced against less powerful PCs.

Now, you can always argue that the new sorcerer still isn't better than the wizard, and therefore 3) isn't a concern in this case.. I'd buy that argument, actually. But it still doesn't address 1) and 2).

Ken

 

[Jason Bulmahn]

Hello everybody,

Seems like I am having the same discussion on a different board now, with some of the same folks no less. Hmm...

Anyway, this issue has been beat to death on our boards already, so let me get a few things out there. In practice, this bonus is not quite as good as it looks. Is it a good choice for human sorcerers, yes. Is is power creep, possibly, but it is relatively innocuous if it is. This is an additional variability in your choices a level behind the highest level spells you can cast. By the point at which you are getting these spells, you will have already hit your focus spells for your character and will instead be picking up some versatility spells (not always the case, I realize, but common enough). While this can be better than additional hp in some situations, it certainly is not always true, especially considering the sorcerer's d6 HD or 2 skill ranks per level.

At the end of the day, the power level for the favored class bonuses are relatively low key, one way or the other. This option adds versatility, as opposed to the others that actually add statistical bonuses. A fair trade off in my book.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

 

[Dark Mistress]

While I agree for the most part the new options are better than the base options. With that said I don't have a problem with it, as a DM or player. I think the real argument here comes down to. Do you think it is power creep and by power creep I mean start to throw the balance off. Personally i don't see it that way. I see it as a new option that makes the human a very attractive option for Sorcerers.

I fully expect after the APG comes out that some races will be better at certain classes, because of the bonuses they get. I am ok with that, since if the Sorc option we have seen is the standard. It is better but I don't think unbalancing, just a slightly better option.

 

[BryonD]

with some of the same folks no less. Hmm...

sorry, was not looking to debate it with you here and I'm not even opening the other thread any longer.

In practice, this bonus is not quite as good as it looks. Is it a good choice for human sorcerers, yes. Is is power creep, possibly, but it is relatively innocuous if it is. This is an additional variability in your choices a level behind the highest level spells you can cast. By the point at which you are getting these spells, you will have already hit your focus spells for your character and will instead be picking up some versatility spells (not always the case, I realize, but common enough). While this can be better than additional hp in some situations, it certainly is not always true, especially considering the sorcerer's d6 HD or 2 skill ranks per level.

Declaring it doesn't make it true. When you can build a class each way and one has everything the other has and more stuff on top, it is objectively true that one is better than the other.

Sorry, I know I'm arguing with "the authority" here, but it is what it is.

 

[BryonD]

Do you think it is power creep and by power creep I mean start to throw the balance off.

If it threw the balance off, I wouldn't call it power creep, I'd call it broken.

Broken stuff is actually easier to avoid, you just don't use it.

But when you get a little boost here, and then another little boost there, and then another and another, it adds up to broken after a while, and every little step along the way drags it down that little bit.

That is why it is called power creep. It creeps along until you have a mess you may not have seen coming.

 

[BryonD]

As far as I'm concerned, and from what little we've seen, Paizo have performed a remarkable feat by capturing the flavor of these iconic combincations, and given them the right amount of incentive WITHOUT adding power creep/game breakery."

Well, again, when you can build the same core character with all the same stuff + more, it is hard to defend the claim that there is no power creep.

 

[joebobodo]

Well, again, when you can build the same core character with all the same stuff + more, it is hard to defend the claim that there is no power creep.

Well, here we all are. From everything I've seen on all of these boards, nobody is budging in their respective positions. Seems to me that the respective sides are just going to have to agree to disagree. At least until the actual book is in our hands, and we've got full context.

In the meantime, yourself and others see potential power creep; myself and others do not. Time and actual playing shall tell.

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

The issue is that these options are more powerful. It is hard to grasp how you can agree with a point and claim to not see it at the same time.

.

I see what your saying, I just simply do not agree with you. The option In my opinion is not an issue. It's good, but so is a skill point or HP and yes they can make a big difference, it's all in the kind of game you play. Hell I recall people taking the same position you are now over the hp or skill point

Also recall these are optional rules, unlike feats or spells these are not just new ones to add to your old choices , these are completely new ability as that may or may not be used, much like traits they are not part of the standard game.


It's not power creep as it's a new sub system that may or may not be used. Kinda like the new options to trade race ability for new race ability. Theses are not something they by default are in the game like a feat. It is not like a new spell or a new feat but more along the line of adding a new casting system or a new ability that replaces feats.

Kinda apple to oranges and no I don't see the issue.

 

[Jason Bulmahn]

Declaring it doesn't make it true. When you can build a class each way and one has everything the other has and more stuff on top, it is objectively true that one is better than the other.

Sorry, I know I'm arguing with "the authority" here, but it is what it is.

No worries..

Listen, I know you can replicate these effects with feats and get a disparity. I get that. The problem here is that neither of the feats you are using are particularly good. The Extra Spell feat is terrible and always has been. The new feat in the APG is a little better, but by no means a powerful feat. You are using a metric that is, in and of itself, not balanced. Not all feats are created equal, nor should they be. I have a good grasp of how good a feat can be, but many feats are not nearly so good and instead serve to flesh out concepts or provide different paths.

So... that is where we are. I know that you disagree, and I understand your position, but I honestly do not believe that this bonus is going to really unbalance anyone's game. Other things in the book might..

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

PS: You wanna talk power creep, check out the hero point system in the back. There is a reason we made it optional.