D&D 5E PHB Feats taken - RESULTS

[DeJoker]

So show me where you made even an attempt to refute the argument that tool proficiency is not as valued by the authors of the game as skill proficiency because tool proficiency is easily obtained for almost no opportunity cost. I'm waiting.

Go back and read Post #41 as apparently you did not -- since you did not quote it as something I stated. Next why not answer the questions I posed rather than simply deflect.

Okay I will simply hopefully end this by saying - Your claim that the designers did not feel that Tool Proficiency were equal to Skill Proficiency is proven by the fact that they allow you to buy your Tool Proficiency up in game and they do not allow you to buy your Skill Proficiency up in game. So with that logic a Skill Proficiency is equivalent to a single Weapon Proficiency which is equivalent to a single Armor Proficiency. That said, because we already established that a single Weapon Proficiency and/or Armor Proficiency is not equivalent to a Skill Proficiency (or maybe you have not who knows and who cares) then just because you can purchase a Tool Proficiency does not mean that the designers valued the Tool Proficiency less than they did the Skill Proficiency all it proves is they created a method that allows you to take up a Tool Proficiency within the game during downtime. The reason for why they did that is pure conjecture, so putting pure conjecture aside all you can do is look at the individual item and make a guess. My guess based on all that I have seen is that a Skill Proficiency (due to how it works) is the same as a Tool Proficiency (due to how it works) and as such are equal in status. MY OPINION is thus stated and I am fine with agreeing to disagree. Now the ball is in your court prove something you cannot prove and that is your position that the designers viewed Tool Proficiency to be worth less than a Skill Proficiency and do it with fact and not conjecture otherwise it is merely YOUR OPINION and I have already agreed to disagree with your opinion.

Addendum to be more precise based on your criterion (without adding in conjecture based purely off the facts) we would have to say that all the following are equivalent

+1 Attribute
1.5 Skill Proficiency
2 Weapon Proficiency
Light Armor Proficiency
Medium + Shield Proficiency
Heavy Armor Proficiency
2 Language Proficiency
1 Saving Throw Proficiency
1.5 Cantrip​

But sadly there is absolutely no evidence to state how much they felt a Tool Proficiency was actually worth because other than Class or Background and in Game Time+Money you cannot obtain them by any other method -- now you state that because within the limited framework of a Background that because within that small window because they say you can choose to take either 2 languages or 2 tool proficiency that they feel that they are equivalent. That assumption I feel is wrong, because if it were true then you could pick up a Tool Proficiency using a Feat and there are absolutely no Feats that allow that -- instead you can pick them up in game for money. Okay so they also allow you to pick up languages in game with Time+Money but to say that makes them equivalent is again not necessarily true as Language is a completely different mechanic than a Tool Proficiency. Again I base my view on the mechanics of how a Tool Proficiency works not off of conjecture and that is my prerogative but having worked on designing games before I feel this is the safest method to equate different aspects of a game. To me a Tool Proficiency can and should be as important as the currently most important Skill Proficiency (see message #41) and the reason they are perceived not to be is not a design element but a case of bad implementation by GMs

 

[Frankie1969]

Also agree that expertise is worth a point more than proficiency.
Another factor to consider is thematic consistency. There should be a slight bonus when all of the features make good sense together, or equivalently a small penalty if the combination of benefits is an a la carte mishmosh.
IMO, an ability point and three skills is too much value for a feat. Maybe if the skills and the stat all fit together perfectly, like +1 Wis, nature, animal handling, survival. Maybe.

 

[DeJoker]

Also agree that expertise is worth a point more than proficiency.
Another factor to consider is thematic consistency. There should be a slight bonus when all of the features make good sense together, or equivalently a small penalty if the combination of benefits is an a la carte mishmosh.
IMO, an ability point and three skills is too much value for a feat. Maybe if the skills and the stat all fit together perfectly, like +1 Wis, nature, animal handling, survival. Maybe.

Now there is a solid point -- if you take a Feat you get the +1 Attribute and 2 Skill Proficiency governed by the attribute you selected.

 

[ro]

A feat like this could be a good replacement for the Variant Human choice. Rather than getting any feat, it could be given specific access to a general feat like this to improve the character but not be overpowered at first level.

 

[Frankie1969]

p.s. if we rate thieves tools at 2 points along with skills, I'd argue that disguise kit is almost as useful, possibly also alchemist, herbalism, and poisoner, since they can craft things with significant adventuring utility. They're all more likely to matter than cobblers tools, chess, or flute proficiency.

 

[ro]

p.s. if we rate thieves tools at 2 points along with skills, I'd argue that disguise kit is almost as useful, possibly also alchemist, herbalism, and poisoner, since they can craft things with significant adventuring utility. They're all more likely to matter than cobblers tools, chess, or flute proficiency.

Good point. Clearly there are some tools that are generally useful, and others that are mostly useless. Maybe they could be grouped into "crafting tools" and "adventuring tools".

 

[DeJoker]

Good point. Clearly there are some tools that are generally useful, and others that are mostly useless. Maybe they could be grouped into "crafting tools" and "adventuring tools".

Or leave them lumped together and let the GM be responsible for making them worth something or not worth something within their games -- something I believe the designers decided to do with everything -- aka let the GM dictate its usefulness and simply rate them equivalent based on functionally rather that potential application -- because you never know a GM just make that Chess Proficiency or that Cobblers Tools Proficiency very important within their game which would then upset the overall balance of game if had been made cheaper

 

[jmucchiello]

TRAINED
You may take this feat more than once.
​

To this and all versions of this feat, you might want to add the stipulation that you can gain both proficiency and expertise in the same skill or tool with a single application of this feat.

 

[Mistwell]

Go back and read Post #41 as apparently you did not -- since you did not quote it as something I stated.

Yeah imagine that, a reply you made to someone else, about something else, is not something I consider in reply to my argument. Post #41 is about the topic of, "Skill Proficiency History is not equivalent to Skill Proficiency Stealth even though they are definitely equivalent but History is not all that useful in most games" This has literally zero to do with our part of the discussion. Are you mistaken on the post number or something?

Okay I will simply hopefully end this by saying - Your claim that the designers did not feel that Tool Proficiency were equal to Skill Proficiency is proven by the fact that they allow you to buy your Tool Proficiency up in game and they do not allow you to buy your Skill Proficiency up in game. So with that logic a Skill Proficiency is equivalent to a single Weapon Proficiency which is equivalent to a single Armor Proficiency.

The second sentence does not, in any way, follow from the first. I never said or implied "All things you're not able to buy are therefore equal".

That is a very silly equivalency you're trying to manufacture there. It doesn't follow logically at all. It's like you just said, "Clouds are white. This object which looks rather like a piece of paper is white. Therefore this object must be a cloud because clouds are white."

What I said was someone else had done a really good and much more accurate breakdown of these issues earlier, which someone else already referred you to, and that break down lists costs much more appropriately than yours does. I believe it listed skill proficiency at a value of 2 and tool proficiency at a value of 0. That's it. That's been my only comment on what things are worth relative to other things in the game. I suggest you check that work out rather than poorly reinventing a square wheel and calling it round, and then getting pissy at anyone who points out your square wheel doesn't look right.

 

[ro]

To this and all versions of this feat, you might want to add the stipulation that you can gain both proficiency and expertise in the same skill or tool with a single application of this feat.

Good call:

TRAINED
You may take this feat more than once.

You gain any combination of the following benefits, adding up to 10 points:

5 points: Increase one ability score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
4 points: Learn a cantrip⁽¹⁾, or gain proficiency in light armor, medium armor⁽²⁾ and shields, or heavy armor⁽³⁾.
3 points: Gain proficiency in simple weapons, martial weapons⁽⁴⁾, or shields.
2 points: Gain proficiency in a skill⁽⁵⁾.
1 point: Gain proficiency in a tool⁽⁶⁾, language, or weapon.

⁽¹⁾If you learn a cantrip, you may choose Wisdom, Intelligence, or Charisma as the spellcasting ability modifier for that cantrip.
⁽²⁾You must be proficient in simple weapons before gaining proficiency in martial weapons.
⁽³⁾You must be proficient in light armor before gaining proficiency in medium armor.
⁽⁴⁾You must be proficient in medium armor before gaining proficiency in heavy armor.
⁽⁵⁾⁽⁶⁾If you choose a skill or tool that you are already proficient in, then your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses that skill or tool. You may gain both proficiency and expertise in a skill or tool through one use of this feat.
⁽⁵⁾At the DM's discretion, expertise may cost an additional point.
⁽⁶⁾At the DM's discretion, proficiency for a particularly useful tool may cost 2 points rather than 1 point.​