Player 1 'grabs and pulls' player 2, then claims it's 'Forced movement, no AtOp'

[FireLance]

If it still bothers you, think about it from this perspective:

Character A is not moving himself. Hence, he does not have to split his concentration between moving himself and defending himself against his enemies. It is this lapse in concentration that normally allows an enemy to take an opportunity attack. Since he is being moved, he is able to concentrate fully on maintaining his defenses. Therefore, he does not provoke an opportunity attack.

 

[S'mon]

Keep in mind, this is not a power. This is grabbing the guy by the collar or arm and just pulling. He said 'Nobody would ever do that though, because it would take a standard action.'

2 standard actions - one to grab target, one to move grabbed target. Without an action point you're looking at 2 rounds to do this.

 

[Ninja-to]

PHB Page 285: "Certain powers and effects allow you to pull, push or slide a target."

and then

"The power you're using specifies how many squares you can move a target. You can choose to move the target fewer squares or not to move it at all. You can't move the target vertically."

Nowhere does it even hint that you can use these rules to 'yank' people around with your bare hands.

*All* Relevant. Thank you.

Also, an 'effect' is one that is granted by a Daily for example. This I thought was obvious.

Also 'relevant'.

I'll say it again, this I'm sure was not how 'pull, push and slide' was intended.

Powers and effects are *NOT* the same as actions in combat. Crawling is not a power. Sheathing a weapon is not a power. Stowing an item is not a power...

Now whether or not it took a standard action should mean that there is no AtOp?

*Irrelevant*

 

[Ninja-to]

2 standard actions - one to grab target, one to move grabbed target. Without an action point you're looking at 2 rounds to do this.

No they were using a reach weapon. Player A offered the reach weapon to player B, player B held on and stepped back. That would be a standard to grab (or just as arguably a free action seeing as the player was a willing target) and a move.

 

[Mirtek]

If this is true then players and creatures can 'pull' each other all over the battlefield anytime they don't want their allies to take opportunity attacks.

Sure, if they rather want to waste their standard action than provoke OAs they can do that.

Your player is definitely right, and you are wrong.

I agree, the players were right

No they were using a reach weapon. Player A offered the reach weapon to player B, player B held on and stepped back. That would be a standard to grab (or just as arguably a free action seeing as the player was a willing target) and a move.

That doesn't work. Unless he spends the action to move the grabbed creature with him (no matter if the creature actually wants to move with him) his grab simply ends if he moves.

 

[Oldtimer]

If this is true then players and creatures can 'pull' each other all over the battlefield anytime they don't want their allies to take opportunity attacks.

Are you really suggesting that players using their one and only standard action each turn to pull each other at half speed "all over the battlefield" is somehow overpowered?

Just let the monsters kill them while they're wasting their time pulling each other.

 

[NewJeffCT]

As per the Compendium:



Seems pretty clear cut to me that the person being pulled doesn't provoke OA's but that the person doing the pulling does.

I think Kzach's find pretty much answers the question - in moving a grabbed target. The grabbed target (the immobilized PC in sand) would not provoke an OA, but the person doing the grabbing & pulling would if he moved away from his square. However, if the mummy is adjacent to the pulling PC, the mummy would get an OA against the pulling PC once he tried to move into the second square.

 

[OnlineDM]

[MENTION=56189]Kzach[/MENTION] already quoted the rules for Moving a Grabbed Target. They're quite clear. The puller provokes while moving; the pulled person does not. And yes, it takes one standard action to grab and another to pull.

I don't know what you want. You asked a question, you've gotten very consistent, authoritative answers. That should be the end of it, but you don't like the answer you've gotten and are still protesting.

I will say that I commonly house-rule that it's easier to move an ally than it is to move an enemy, and it sounds like you're invoking a similar house rule here since you didn't require a standard action to grab and another standard to drag. It would be a totally reasonable HOUSE RULE to have the following:

Moving a willing ally
As a standard action, you may grab a willing ally (no check required), or a willing ally may grab onto you or an appropriate item held by you (no check required). As a move action, you may move up to half you speed while grabbing an ally or while an ally has grabbed onto you, moving the ally with you. This movement provokes opportunity attacks from enemies as if both PCs were willingly moving (thus, the creature being pulled provokes opportunity attacks as it is moved away).

I'm guessing this is what you're going for (maybe even making the "grab a willing ally" or "grab onto the item held by the willing ally" a minor or free action in this case), since you didn't use the "two standard actions" rules as written, and I think this would be a fine house rule. Ruling that this provokes opportunity attacks is fine since you're letting the PCs break the normal action economy regarding moving grabbed targets.

But you asked what the rules as written are, and they're exactly what everyone else has said they are.

 

[Ninja-to]

Allowing someone to pull you is not forced movement. You are a willing target.

The intention of not allowing AtOps on creatures that are being forced to move around seems fairly obvious this was to avoid players exploiting moving creatures around to gain AtOps on top of moving them around the battlefield.

Oh did I mention that being a willing target isn't forcing them to move?

Also, why should grabbing your friend, a willing target, be a standard action, especially if they're immobilized. You can open a door with a minor action, which involves 'grabbing' the door handle. Your friend and ally may actually reach out with their hand to make it easier for you to grab them. That would not be a standard action.

So in that scenario, your ally could reach out and grab your hand, pull you while using their move action, you don't take any AtOps, and then you in turn can use your movement and pull your friend as well, negating any AtOps they might take.

All of this sillyness is because you are all claiming forced movement is something it isn't. Also, I think the entire point of the AtOp issue with *real* forced movement is being ignored. It was to avoid an exploit, not create a new one (which is what people here are trying to do).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

@Kzach already quoted the rules for Moving a Grabbed Target. They're quite clear. The puller provokes while moving; the pulled person does not. And yes, it takes one standard action to grab and another to pull.

I don't know what you want. You asked a question, you've gotten very consistent, authoritative answers. That should be the end of it, but you don't like the answer you've gotten and are still protesting.

I will say that I commonly house-rule that it's easier to move an ally than it is to move an enemy, and it sounds like you're invoking a similar house rule here since you didn't require a standard action to grab and another standard to drag. It would be a totally reasonable HOUSE RULE to have the following:



I'm guessing this is what you're going for (maybe even making the "grab a willing ally" or "grab onto the item held by the willing ally" a minor or free action in this case), since you didn't use the "two standard actions" rules as written, and I think this would be a fine house rule. Ruling that this provokes opportunity attacks is fine since you're letting the PCs break the normal action economy regarding moving grabbed targets.

But you asked what the rules as written are, and they're exactly what everyone else has said they are.

I wouldn't necessarily consider this to be house rule actually. Grab is an action you can take to grab hold of an unwilling enemy target. Generally speaking picking up something or taking hold of it is a minor action. I'd argue in the case of a willing ally it isn't reasonable for it it be any harder to grab the ally than it would be to pick up an item from the same square. So IMHO the RAW is minor action to take hold of your ally, and standard action to move him around.

As for the OA, I agree with the general consensus, pulling someone or dragging them clearly is a form of forced movement or analogous. There's no need for there to be an OA.

I'd just observe to the OP that probably in a case like this the 'rule of cool' is a good way to go. It was a fun interesting move the player chose to take, don't punish the players for that. OTOH the player really should have accepted the ruling at the table and let things move on.