• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E Poll: Experience, Leveling, and Groups

When Should You Gain Experience?

  • When you attend a game session

    Votes: 27 32.9%
  • After a game session, with or without attendance

    Votes: 11 13.4%
  • Skip experience and just level up based on the story

    Votes: 43 52.4%
  • Skip experience and just level up after a set number of sessions

    Votes: 1 1.2%

Ahnehnois

First Post
Players achieve nothing of worth around the gaming table --or virtually equivalent thereof-- outside of having fun
Really? I think you're rather underselling the basic notion of a game (in which achievements defined by the rules are attributed meaning by participants and observers). For example, I think many people feel rather strongly that the San Francisco Giants recently achieved something greater than "fun" simply by playing a game (while the same "fun" is not much of a consolation prize for the other teams). The sense of achievement from performing well in a game, arbitrarily defined as its rules might be, can be a major driving force in people's lives.

There's also the creative aspect of the game, which can constitute artistic achievement. Not that many people will ever see it, but there are many great artists toiling away in obscurity, some under the auspices of playing an rpg.

Neither of these precludes the recreational aspect of the game, but I'd say it's entirely possible that D&D is more than just fun.

Certainly, I can see the motivation to want to recognize player achievement by "keeping score" using XP, even though I don't do it.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Tequila Sunrise

Adventurer
Eh, I've heard all of the arguments. The only reason I'd even consider not awarding XP to absentees anymore would be if I for some reason felt obligated to DM a group of incorrigibly flakey players. In such a case, it'd be a last resort effort to shape them up. But such a scenario is hard to imagine, because no gaming is better than bad gaming.

That said, I can't be arsed with how 5e handles XP. In the unlikely event that I ever DM it, I'll probably just award levels by fiat as usual. :D
 

Grydan

First Post
Two Questions:

1) Should the reason for their absence have any effect on whether or not they get experience?
There's a difference between mother in the hospital, double-book with a pub crawl, and just forgot as excuses.

If their mother's in the hospital, I'll express my sympathy, and otherwise proceed as normal. If they double-book with a pub crawl, I'll get a bit miffed they didn't invite the rest of us along, and then proceed as normal. If they just forgot, everyone in the group will mock them for the duration of the campaign and find ways to annoy them with "helpful" reminders leading up to every session... and we'll just proceed as normal.

If their behaviour becomes an issue, then we'll discuss their behaviour. Their character's rate of levelling will not be affected, unless their behaviour has become enough of an issue that we ask the player to leave the campaign, in which case their character probably wanders off into the murky woods never to return (unless someone calls dibs).

2) Levelling everyone as a group removes the ability to reward creative thinking, role-playing, good behaviour, and the like with experience. Should alternative rewards be in the game? Either as part of the core rules or as a module.
Yes, it removes the ability to reward those things with experience points, unless you reward the whole group simultaneously (which remains an option). It certainly doesn't do anything to stop us from rewarding players and PCs in other ways, many of which are more meaningful than a chunk of abstract points that, in the grand scheme of things may not even lead to a single session advantage in levelling. In game, in character, rewards are (to me) generally preferable to metagame rewards. Would it be a good idea to discuss some of those ways in the DMG? Absolutely. That seems to me to be one of the purposes of the book.

Really? I think you're rather underselling the basic notion of a game (in which achievements defined by the rules are attributed meaning by participants and observers). For example, I think many people feel rather strongly that the San Francisco Giants recently achieved something greater than "fun" simply by playing a game (while the same "fun" is not much of a consolation prize for the other teams). The sense of achievement from performing well in a game, arbitrarily defined as its rules might be, can be a major driving force in people's lives.

I think the number of ways in which my D&D campaign is different from professional baseball is quite a large number. For one thing, none of us being payed even in peanuts to show up at the table and play. None of us in under contract. We are none of us supporting our families, lavish bachelor lifestyles, or future retirements off of our D&D earnings.

We have, usually, no non-participating spectators. Nobody has bought tickets to watch us play.

There's no D&D Hall of Fame in Cooperstown waiting to enshrine our character sheets, record our XP totals and performance metrics as a shining example to fans and future players.

Few, if any, of the players in an MLB game (nevermind the World Series), are there simply because they get enjoyment out of playing. Most of them, if instead of being payed tens of millions of dollars, they were offered access to a communal bag of chips, bowl of dip, and a box of TimBits (all paid for by the players themselves) as their only reward beyond the fun they can find in the game, would probably find something else to do with their time. It's their job. I would hope they find some enjoyment in their chosen profession, but hey, if they don't, they're rather handsomely rewarded for their suffering. If, in addition to the snacks (but still instead of money) we also offered arbitrary points which can not be converted into goods or services, I don't think they'd find that additional temptation sufficient to continue playing a game that (far more often than D&D, at least the way I play it) can lead to the need for reconstructive surgery on major joints.

My players, on the other hand, would probably still show up even if we didn't have snacks (well, maybe not... they incorporated their desire for snacks into the adventuring party's in-game name), and certainly wouldn't fret too much over the absence of XP rewards.

There's also the creative aspect of the game, which can constitute artistic achievement. Not that many people will ever see it, but there are many great artists toiling away in obscurity, some under the auspices of playing an rpg.

Neither of these precludes the recreational aspect of the game, but I'd say it's entirely possible that D&D is more than just fun.

Certainly, I can see the motivation to want to recognize player achievement by "keeping score" using XP, even though I don't do it.
I certainly won't deny that there's a creative aspect to the game, but I consider that aspect a subset of "fun". I suppose there's some tortured artist types out there who manifest their creativity through D&D play whilst not enjoying themselves, but I'm not sure I'd want to play with them. Watch them, maybe, but I'll stick to playing with folks who enjoy playing.

I just don't see the point of keeping score. There's no leader-board. The max score is achievable by everyone, requires no particularly great skill, and I don't know of anyone who would be particularly impressed to find out that my Half-Elf Rogue managed to hit max level three sessions earlier than anyone else in the party.

In systems where the metagame points can be traded in for in-game benefits (beyond just levelling up), then sure, there's some reward value to the points. I don't particularly care for that design approach, though.

All that said, yeah, if folks get a kick out of keeping score, have at it. It's not going to harm me in any way, as far as I can tell.
 

pemerton

Legend
Levelling everyone as a group removes the ability to reward creative thinking, role-playing, good behaviour, and the like with experience. Should alternative rewards be in the game? Either as part of the core rules or as a module.
Maybe. Part of the problem is that D&D play, in its most mainstream form, doesn't always make it easy to engage in creative or engaged roleplaying, because the stakes for making the wrong call are too high (typically PC death). Before the designers think about incentivising that sort of play, they need to look at ways in which the game can make more room for it.

The player who missed the session was already punished - they missed the session.

If that's not enough punishment, then the player isn't engaged with the campaign.
This is my own view, too. When one of our players misses a session its not uncommon for them to phone in when they get a chance to see how things are going, and we circulate updates via email to keep non-attenders informed about what happened to their PC in particular and to the party in general.

We want to play, and missing out is its own penalty.

why in the Nine Hells would you EVER think that you get xp whether you show up or not, contribute anything or not, disrupt the game or not?

<snip>

I'd RATHER see a variance in PC levels properly reflecting their actual presence and participation in the actual game events (even a LARGE variance) than give a PC even a single point to keep levels even when the PC hasn't actually participated in the game to earn that point.
You start out talking bout players (they are the ones who show up or not, disrupt or not, etc) but then finish by taking about PCs.

I think it's interesting to consider whether XP are awarded primarily to the character (as [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] has described above) or to the player (which is where most of those who advocate "no attendance, no XP" seem to be coming from). Presumably this should make a difference to the way in which they are awarded.

I view levels as a tool we use in the game to help the story advance from "kill some gith" to "kill a sorcerer-king." I don't start new players out at level 1, either.
To me, XP really is just a pacing mechanism that allows a player has some time to get used to his characters' abilities before he gets any newer ones.
These two posts capture the way that I use XP: its a pacing mechanism that both (i) let's players have a bit of fun with their PCs' current builds before they change again, and (ii) advance the backdrop of the game from fighting kobolds to fighting Orcus.

I think if you're giving out XP at a constant treadmill pace, then at that point the concept has become vestigial and you might as well just hand out levels directly. I bet the 4e designers were really close to doing this (in the same way they ditched monster-specific treasure in favor of treasure parcels).
In 4e, I think it should be roughly one level per 10 hours of committed play. Despite the relative transparency of this, I still use XP in my 4e campaign. Mostly for aesthetic/nostalgic reasons, I think, but also perhaps on the assumption that the designers though that their own XP suggestions would achieve goal (i) above, of giving players a good amount of experience with their current PC build.

Or, in other words, what Mallus said here:

In my past two campaigns (3e & 4e) I used group XP -- just making some number up that sounded good. Everyone, including new and replacement/alternate PC, had the same total. I didn't just hand out levels, but I might as well have. I guess I still have affection for arbitrarily-assigned values.

For my current AD&D game, I tally every GP of treasure and HP of defeated foe, then divide it evenly between the PCs, present and not. Why do I bother? Nostalgia, mainly, plus an interest in seeing how quickly PCs gain levels from looting the classic AD&D modules, plus random encounters generated from the DMG.
 

pemerton

Legend
It's not fun to have less treasure and fewer magic items than the rest of the table. Should absent players also received gold and items?
Treasure, both in terms of magical items and GP? Dividing it is the party's bailiwick, not the DM's, as far as I'm concerned. I give them what I give them, and if they want to withhold treasure from non-attendees, that's for them to figure out. Given that it's of benefit to the party for everyone to be kept up to a decent level of equipment and supplies, they generally choose not to punish anyone.
I'm basically with Grydan on this one.

My 4e game has two exceptions, though, and they're pretty big ones. First, it's often pretty clear in 4e which PC will benefit most from a given item (especially if it's a wishlist item). Which means that, in practice, the players know who to give it to. Second, I deliver quite a bit of the magic treasure in my 4e game via item power-ups (as per the Adventurer's Vault guidelines) - this is a half-way house between inherent bonuses and straigh-out treasure parcels. So players don't get to allocate these (unless they realloate the powered-up items among themselves, but typically they won't, for the first reason stated in this paragraph).

In a game in which items didn't play such a central role in PC building, these two exceptions wouldn't be so prominent.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
There's no D&D Hall of Fame [...] waiting to enshrine our character sheets, record our XP totals and performance metrics as a shining example to fans and future players.
Yeah, but there should be. :)

Maybe here - this site - might be a good place for a character Hall of Fame...?

Lan-"that said, chances are extremely high I would not be in it"-efan
 


Tony Vargas

Legend
Two Questions:

1) Should the reason for their absence have any effect on whether or not they get experience?
I guess that depends on how judgmental you are (DM's also used to be called 'judges' back in the day, y'know), and what the nature of your personal relationships are.

2) Levelling everyone as a group removes the ability to reward creative thinking, role-playing, good behaviour, and the like with experience.
With /experience/, yeah. Greater fun & participation in the game, in-story rewards and the like, though, are still open. And as someone rightly said, above, playing the game is its own reward.

Frankly, too much carrot-and-stick stuff applied to the players starts to look like the DM training monkeys for his own entertainment, rather than getting together with friends to play a game.
 

S'mon

Legend
Frankly, too much carrot-and-stick stuff applied to the players starts to look like the DM training monkeys for his own entertainment, rather than getting together with friends to play a game.

In traditional D&D, it's playing a game where the goal of play is to acquire gp and xp. Success is measured by your avatar's ability to acquire gp and XP without dying. Handing gp and xp out to people who didn't play would be senseless, like playing Monopoly and then handing out Monopoly money to people who didn't actually play.

If XP ceases to be a goal and becomes (eg) a pacing mechanic, then it ceases to make sense to only give XP to people who play.
 

Ahnehnois

First Post
I think the number of ways in which my D&D campaign is different from professional baseball is quite a large number.
Surely, yes. However, it started out not so differently, and like all games is still defined by its roots. D&D is only a few decades old and is unlikely to ever become monetized in the same way, but both share the fundamental nature of being a game.

Few, if any, of the players in an MLB game (nevermind the World Series), are there simply because they get enjoyment out of playing.
I actually disagree with that. I think "love of the game" is more prevalent than you seem to be suggesting. I would also turn that around and say that some D&D players might expect something more concrete from their games than simply enjoying the playing of the game.

I certainly won't deny that there's a creative aspect to the game, but I consider that aspect a subset of "fun".
I'd say it's the other way around, if anything. D&D is a creative activity that invokes a variety of emotional responses, some of which are (hopefully) fun to experience.

All that said, yeah, if folks get a kick out of keeping score, have at it. It's not going to harm me in any way, as far as I can tell.
At the end of the day, I guess we've gotten to the same place; pretty much my take as well.
 

Remove ads

Top