Post Roman D&D setting with magic and Roman Gods

[Thomas Bowman]

I will judiciously avoid references to the role of Christianity in WWII and would recommend that others do likewise; this thread will have a very short life, otherwise.

The reason that I asked where the “separation” date between our own history and this parallel history lies, is that – after, say 30 CE as you suggest – it becomes increasingly difficult to justify subsequent structures (e.g. the Eastern Roman Empire) which are predicated on complex systems which include religion. The further removed in time a system is from this initial bifurcation point, the more implausible it becomes that a “parallel” system which resembles it comes to evolve. And the length of time involved – you are suggesting almost 1500 years – would, I submit, be long enough to change the shape of the world completely beyond recognition.

Monotheism – when employed in the service of an imperial philosophy – is a very effective tool for consolidating power and homogenizing culture; it is uniquely suited to creating an “us” (those who believe and practice as we do) and “them” (those whose religious practices differ) justification for war and conquest. Where polytheism prevails and absolute truth claims do not hold this kind of weight, different mechanisms also tend to drive the justification – bear in mind that whatever the justification, resource control and population pressure are invariably the actual motivators for war.

To suggest that an entity (say Britannia) retains its cultural and linguistic identity after such a time is unlikely, given what we know of human migrations, invasions and annexations. To say that many or all former Roman provinces have retained their identities is highly implausible; you are describing small polities that have effectively remained static in their culture and borders for over 1000 years. This simply doesn’t happen.

There was plenty of war in polytheistic times, the Romans even had a god of War. I still maintain that its no coincidence that the borders of the Roman province of Gaul approximate the borders of modern France. Britain has natural borders of its own, there is a good chance that island would have been united anyway regardless of whether there was Christianity or not. Christianity by the way is a middle eastern import, Europeans adopted it, but Christianity didn't make them into the people they were, they were already those people. Germans were Germans, Brits were Brits, their languages may have ended up different, but we allow for that in a role playing game. Whatever language is spoken at the gaming table, we assume is translated into whatever languages our characters speak in their setting. I posit that the Roman Empire would have still fallen even if there wasn't Christianity, so 1500 years later would would still have a bunch of nations in Europe, some not getting along too well, they would be pagan nations perhaps.

The Classic Roman Pantheon did tend to absorb other pantheons over time, they did that with the Greeks for example, the Norse Deities have their own parallels. The reason one avoids Christianity in an RPG is because there are many Christians today, so just as we need pagan deities in the Forgotten Realms, we could use some historic pagan deities in this setting, and if these gods in this setting are more than just some people's beliefs, then the gods themselves will personally have a role to play. It is Dungeons and Dragons after all.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

I always thought that Charlemagne got tricked into becoming Emperor.

Charlemagne did NOT expect the Pope to show up with a crown, figurative or literal; nor to be addressed as "Emperor"

Apparently, Charlemagne's propaganda machine is still effective after 1200 years. Stop and consider who wrote that account, and their reasons for doing so.

 

[Thomas Bowman]

Please review your previous threads, and consider how 'stepping on your own tongue' contributes to the discussions in them being derailed.

I speak nothing but the truth, nothing against Germany today, they did what they did back then and there is no way to white wash it.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Better a totally fantasy world. Do remember the origin of gladiators games were human sacrifices in funeral ceremonies, according to some historical sources in the first century Jews were the 10% of Roman population because pagans were suffering a brutal demographic crisis. Have you read anything about the Antonine Plague or the plague of Cyprian or the plague of Justinian? And tehe infanticide of newborn wasn't rare at all (more if there were unwanted girls) Do you know what was the "exposito" (infant exposure or child abandonment)? Babies left, not in a convent or orphanage but in the middle of the street, sometimes in the "columna lactaria". The fate of pagan Roman empire was doomed. In the times of Julian the apostate the Romans were practically atheists and pagan religion almost forgotten, little more than folklore.

(Samson would kick-ass Heracles, Kratos and company, if God wanted).

My suggestion is the pagan deities from our world survived in their own "time sphere", something like a demiplane like the "Hollow Earth" from Mystara world.

Was there any prophecy about Minerva/Athena would kill Zeus/Jupiter?

 

[Thomas Bowman]

Well it is a fantasy world, it is just one in the shape of Earth, Everything in the Monster Manual can be found somewhere on this Earth, it is by no means historical. Lets just say this world has a common origin with Earth, splitting off in 30 AD, and then the gods started showing up and got busy. Gaia is known as the "mother of monsters" so in the 1st century AD she made a lot of monsters. One could say this world didn't exist before 30 AD, and someone made a copy of our Earth, and then added a bunch of monsters, gods and magic to it. The date on this world is somewhere close to 1500 AD if Jesus ever got crucified, which did not happen here. So this world is about 1470 years old, and anything from before 30 AD is from our Earth, there is also a time lag between our modern Earth and this fantasy Earth of about 500 years. So we can introduce D20 Modern characters into this setting if we want. Lets say some scientist in a secret laboratory builds a transferal device. So if its 2018 on our Earth, it is the equivalent of 1518 on this post Roman fantasy Earth, so the first thing that might occur to them is they built a time machine, until they start investigating their surroundings and realize the differences, pagan temples instead of Catholic Churches and the like, monsters in the forest is a good indicator that this is not time travel as well. Maybe the gods got together and decided to manufacture their own version of history, Saturn/Kronos helped out a bit with this, since he is the god of time, he was able to reach into the past and with the help of other gods, make a copy of the Earth circa 30 AD, and then they got to work adding things to it.

 

[Thomas Bowman]

Better a totally fantasy world. Do remember the origin of gladiators games were human sacrifices in funeral ceremonies, according to some historical sources in the first century Jews were the 10% of Roman population because pagans were suffering a brutal demographic crisis. Have you read anything about the Antonine Plague or the plague of Cyprian or the plague of Justinian? And tehe infanticide of newborn wasn't rare at all (more if there were unwanted girls) Do you know what was the "exposito" (infant exposure or child abandonment)? Babies left, not in a convent or orphanage but in the middle of the street, sometimes in the "columna lactaria". The fate of pagan Roman empire was doomed. In the times of Julian the apostate the Romans were practically atheists and pagan religion almost forgotten, little more than folklore.

(Samson would kick-ass Heracles, Kratos and company, if God wanted).

My suggestion is the pagan deities from our world survived in their own "time sphere", something like a demiplane like the "Hollow Earth" from Mystara world.

Was there any prophecy about Minerva/Athena would kill Zeus/Jupiter?

Yeah that's what I'm suggesting as well, and why not introduce some D20 Modern characters as well to stir things up, and maybe get some of these gods attention if they do.
I did read three books in a series called Olympus Bound.
Starts with this book
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25746707-the-immortals
Now Olympus Bound could be the basis of a D20 Modern campaign, now instead of the mad scientists in his secret lab, it could be a god which gets the modern characters over to the post Roman fantasy Earth, most likely candidate for this could be Athena. Maybe Athena wants to introduce some changes in this 1500 AD world, like maybe introduce democracy perhaps, her patron city after all did invent democracy after all. Maybe Athena is just losing patience with all the kings, emperors and wars in this world, maybe she doesn't much like the slavery that is starting in the New World, maybe bringing in some modern characters might fix this in her opinion, but the other gods are just fine with the world as it is, so Athena can't bring in too many Modern characters into this world without drawing some of the other gods unwanted attention. Mars is fine with this world as it is, he likes it even better than when the Roman Empire stood at its height, because of the Pax Roma, and he is a god of war not peace. Mars started siding with the barbarians who sacked Rome, and got a lot of converts among the barbarians, so Mars/Ares is doing just fine here. Aphrodite is a bit of a neutral, she had a fling with Mars for a while, but then she started pursuing other interesting males. Athena wants some more civilization. Gaia is having a creative streak, making monsters and especially sea monsters, she has also populated the oceans with merfolk, aquatic elves, but turning humans that fell overboard into them, she's been doing this for almost 1500 years and they have since formed their own underwater kingdoms.

Another idea is that Briton is ruled by a very familiar monarch, someone named Arthur.

 

[Shasarak]

Apparently, Charlemagne's propaganda machine is still effective after 1200 years. Stop and consider who wrote that account, and their reasons for doing so.

What was the alternate narrative?

 

[Thomas Bowman]

I don't think Charlemagne would have existed in this alternate universe, maybe someone like him might have, but not him! No specific individual would have exited, not Columbus, not King Richard the Third, not even a pagan version of him.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

What was the alternate narrative?

Leo flees Rome (accused of adultery) and runs to Charlemagne. They cut a deal - reinstate me as Pope, and I'll crown you Emperor of the West. Carolus Magnus obliges. They arrange a "surprise" in St Peter's Cathedral on the eight hundredth anniversary of the birth of Our Lord while Charles is "praying devoutly." Carl's humility and piety are played up; Alcuin - or whoever Charlie's crony scribe was - records the story of how Karl reluctantly accepts his burden, with appropriate solemnity.

Charlemagne's ambition was colossal; he was making a bid for the Byzantine Throne - he was already making overtures toward Irene of Athens, and she was considering marriage. Had he succeeded, he would have essentially reunited the Empire.

Leo got his pontificate back and established the precedent that it is the Pope who appoints the Emperor of the Romans.

It was a pretty sweet deal for both of them.

 

[Anselyn]

There is no comparison between the Vietnam War and World War II, nor is there one between the Iraq War and World War II. World War II is in a league all of its own.

I think it is dangerous to think that WWII was some different kind of war. I don't see it as being in a league of its own. For the British, WWI certainly had profounder consequences and a greater psychic shock. For the US, the Civil War was a bloodier conflict and I suggest still has greater lingering effects on the US today.

If you are elliptically asking us to consider the Holocaust, then that was not the cause, motivation or justification for WWII. It was only really uncovered after the end of the war.