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Power build [psionic] feat, ((Retired))

Someone

Adventurer
if I applied the same analysis above to my high-level psionic characters, I would find that they gained as many as 50+ PP from this feat on a typical day

You totally got me there. Getting 50+ pps from the (1st option) feat would require manifesting 25+ buff powers. At high levels, and estimating a conservative average of 9 pps spent on each buff, that's 225+ pps spent on buffs. I'd expect a 16th level character to have around 280 pps, so I wonder if after buffing you have to call it a day and go back to the bed.
 

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Rystil Arden

First Post
Someone said:
You totally got me there. Getting 50+ pps from the (1st option) feat would require manifesting 25+ buff powers. At high levels, and estimating a conservative average of 9 pps spent on each buff, that's 225+ pps spent on buffs. I'd expect a 16th level character to have around 280 pps, so I wonder if after buffing you have to call it a day and go back to the bed.
I know it requires 25+ buffs per day--I mentioned that in my post above ;)

The Psion character from my FtF game is level 20 and has 473 PP. For starters, he casts at least 9 15 PP Mind Blanks per day (135 PP). Add in a super buffed Inertial Armour (admittedly PP intensive), a few cheap utility buffs (things like Touchsight and Psionic Overland Flight that don't require massiveaugmentation to be effective) a Vigour + Force Shield before any planned encounter, Empathic Links, Biofeedbacks, Affinity Fields...

Admittedly, he's a support Psion, not a blaster--he doesn't have any Psychokinetic powers, for instance.
 

Patlin

Explorer
Someone said:
Power build, Version 2:

Power build [Psionic]
You are attuned enough with your own body and the energy flowing from the elemental towers that you can take some of it to compliment your own psychic power.
Requisites: Manifester level 2
Benefit: You must spend your psionic focus as a full round action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity to use this feat. If you do, up to a number of rounds equal to your manifesting stat bonus (Intelligence for psions, Wisdom for psychic warriors, Charisma for Wilders, etc) the next power you manifest has it's cost reduced in 1 power point, to a minimum of 1 power point. For every 6 manifesting levels over 1st (at 7th, 13th and 20th level), the cost is reduced in 1 extra power point. The Bestow power psionic power can't benefit from this feat.
You can't use this feat to augment powers further than you otherwise could; in other words, the power points spent plus the reduced cost can't be higher than your manifester level.
You can use Power build a number of times per day equal to 1 + your relevant manifesting stat bonus (minimum 1).
When you use this feat you also cause a Display of your choice, as if you were manifesting a power. You can try to dispense with it with a DC 15 Concentration check, as if it were a power.

OK, I'm getting how Rystil is abusing version 1 to make it worth 50+ power points.

Lets look at version 2 at level 20.

Psion
Int 18+5 (levels)+5 (tome, if he's extremely rich or lucky)+6 (headband)=34
Stat modifier of +12

13 * 4 = 52 power points for a fully loaded psion.

I guess that's not any better.

*chagrinned*
 

Knight Otu

First Post
Patlin said:
I guess that's not any better.
The problem is that it scales in level twice, really, once directly with the increased savings, and indirectly with the uses per day. If the uses per day were 1 plus 1/2 the ability modifier (thus delaying one scaling effect without removing it), we'd have 28 pps saved. If we got rid of the scaled savings, we'd have 13, obviously.
 

Someone

Adventurer
Patlin said:
OK, I'm getting how Rystil is abusing version 1 to make it worth 50+ power points.

Lets look at version 2 at level 20.

Psion
Int 18+5 (levels)+5 (tome, if he's extremely rich or lucky)+6 (headband)=34
Stat modifier of +12

13 * 4 = 52 power points for a fully loaded psion.

I guess that's not any better.

*chagrinned*

If the problem is repeated use, I think I may have a way around that that would preserve the feat's original intent. Add this to both versions:

"Using this feat again within a period of 10 (?) minutes since the last time you used it makes you become fatigued. You cannot use the feat if you're exhausted"

Remember that an effect that makes you fatigued when you're already fatigued makes you exhausted instead. I know there are ways around fatigue and exhaustion, but then we're entering bag of rats territory.
 

Rystil Arden

First Post
Someone said:
If the problem is repeated use, I think I may have a way around that that would preserve the feat's original intent. Add this to both versions:

"Using this feat again within a period of 10 (?) minutes since the last time you used it makes you become fatigued. You cannot use the feat if you're exhausted"

Remember that an effect that makes you fatigued when you're already fatigued makes you exhausted instead. I know there are ways around fatigue and exhaustion, but then we're entering bag of rats territory.
That will definitely help with the "we have 5 or 6 rounds before combat, so quick, put up some buffs!" aspect. That means that it will be expected to be used once for each fight for a pre-buff (to avoid fatigue), plus Inertial Armour for the whole day some time out of combat, plus maybe another long term buff (in my example, it would be Mind Blank on each party member). My psion in LEW s now in a party of 8 (one person just dropped though, so 7 now I guess) and my other psion was in a party of 6 until the GM and Judge dropped and I took over to help out and had my character leave, so using realistic numbers from LEW adventures, that would be 6-8 Mind Blanks a day, which takes us back to the 13-use limit at the high-end for #2.

#1 becomes more reasonable with the new limitation though. You'll probably only save 30 PP or less on an average day with #1 and the new limitation (if you need lots of out-of-combat buffs for puzzles or utlities, maybe very rarely a bit more).
 

Someone

Adventurer
Rystil Arden said:
#1 becomes more reasonable with the new limitation though. You'll probably only save 30 PP or less on an average day with #1 and the new limitation

Well, yes, if you have 5 hours to spare or perhaps a lot of Lesser Restoration available.
 

Rystil Arden

First Post
Someone said:
Well, yes, if you have 5 hours to spare or perhaps a lot of Lesser Restoration available.
10 minutes x 15 buffs = not even 3 hours. And obviously you aren't just sitting around doing nothing in the intervening time. Mind Blank lasts 24 hours--just Mind Blanking your party (and you can stagger your manifesting so that each one runs out >10 away from the other) will cover a bunch of those. I reduced the amount saved from 50+ to ~30 or less due to the fact that I imagine there wouldn't be more than 15 discrete instances separated by 10 minutes when you want to cast a buff each day (6-8 Mind Blanks, 1 Inertial Armour, Maybe 0-3 Utility Buffs for travel perception etc, 4 fights per day with one pre-buff per).
 

Rae ArdGaoth

Explorer
I believe the feat has changed enough that my original no vote doesn't really apply anymore. Bront's proposal of Psionic Reserve (which I think is very well balanced) has given me a good reference point to judge this feat by: I think it should produce about 1pp/level.

Someone: Can you explain exactly what your original purpose with this feat was? Did you mean for it to be used in combat or out of combat? Can you maybe go into more detail with the "ominous humm" reference?
 

Someone

Adventurer
Rae ArdGaoth said:
I believe the feat has changed enough that my original no vote doesn't really apply anymore. Bront's proposal of Psionic Reserve (which I think is very well balanced) has given me a good reference point to judge this feat by: I think it should produce about 1pp/level.

Someone: Can you explain exactly what your original purpose with this feat was? Did you mean for it to be used in combat or out of combat? Can you maybe go into more detail with the "ominous humm" reference?

The "hummmm" was the starting point; for some gamers thinking in game terms when you're reading a book or watching a film becomes a natural thing. Trying to come with a way to do the special effect in the game was a natural thing (it becomes a running gag in the webcomic), and I considered several possibilities. Themost obvious was Create sound, which can produce a very mean and ominous hummm on it's own. Speaking in terms of my own character, he has both Create and Control sound, so the intensity, tone and volume of hummms he can produce is great.

However, the sound suggested accumulating power, and there are not a lot of means of doing that in the SRD psionic rules, or for that matter a way to tie psionic energy with LEW background. I thought that a way to partially offset the psion's main weakness (lack of power points) and relate it with the elemental towers would be great, as long it wouldn't build in the psion's existing main strenght, the ability to manifest many many high level powers and do it very quickly. If you see character optimizations based on psions, they'll include feats like Overchannel and powers like Schism and Temporal Acceleration: both allow you to manifest more potent powers and do it very quickly.

In terms of game design, an ability that mends a weakness is less powerful than other that builds on existing strenghts; that's why Practiced Spellcaster gives a huge bonus to caster level. The psion's weakness is agreed to be that he has very little staying power compared with roughly equivalent characters (like wizards or clerics and specially sorcerers). So I believe that a featthat improves that weak point would look powerful in paper, but won't be so powerful in game terms.

I thought that a way to make him save a bit of each power at the cost of time would be the way to do so: if the psion manifest high level powers, the benefit he gets from the feat becomes comparatively small, and spending one round and psionic focus (both precious in combat) would forbid it's use when you need to spend many power points in a short span of time. So you can summarize the feat as this: some power points, as long you don't do what psions do best. Sound has nothing to do with it (except that it survives in the form of creating a display of your choice)

The main dificulty is to determine how many power points should the feat grant, and balance it for all levels. A fixed quantity like the feat Bront proposed recently would do it much more easily, but I believe it's rather dry in terms of flavor.
 

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