Proposed Monk Rules Preview (not house rules)

[Colmarr]

Posting like this is not an issue, but thanks for your concern.

Unless I'm mistaken, Shroomy has had some work published by WotC so when he tells you that posting like this is problematic, it behooves you to listen.

Even without any special insight into the submissions process, I'm pretty certain that it excludes previously published material and anything posted on a public messageboard has already been published.

 

[Artoomis]

Thanks for the unsolicited advice of what and whether I should post asking for input. I appreciate it, but I believe I have structured this in such a way that this will not be an issue - if I am wrong, so be it, that ship has sailed. If in the end, WotC chooses not to publish my work but does something else that achieves the same results, i will still be very happy and consider this effort a success.

Meantime, I have already submitted my concept to WotC. I am not going to discuss exactly what I submitted or exactly what I will submit as an article if they request the full article because that could cause them to decide not to publish my article.

Meantime, what I would really like is more comments on the mechanics and balance issues. This will help me (and the whole community) by ensuring that balance issues are well-thought out. Thanks for all your help!!

 

[Artoomis]

......Attack bonuses, likewise, are probably excessive (yes, even in light of the Slayer's 'Poised Assault' stance - remember Slayer's have a lot of ground to make up due to their lack of dailies and lack of choice).

Typically, at-wills useable as basic attacks are /barely/ better than basic attacks, at all (and sometimes, it's debateable). The mere fact that 'Open Palm' will be useable as a basic attack makes it desireable. It saves the player who takes it a feat on Melee Training, for instance, which is very nice at first level or with a Human character.

Agreed, and this is only barely better than a regular basic attack. It's about equivalent to Wicked Strike (Fighter), Ensorcelled Blade (Sorcerer), Virtuous Strike (Paladin), Sonnlinor's Hammer(Cleric), Intent Laid Bare (Ardent), Vampire Slam (Vampire), Grasping Claws (Druid), Savage Rend (Druid), and not as good as similar powers that work as a basic attack only when charging or for OAs.

After reviewing all those, I think that I agree with mneme and that it should be a untyped bonus and not a power bonus. This feels very "striker-y" in that it increases accuracy.

The Monk's Full Discipline only makes it's at will /better/, really, so there's not much need for improvement. A basic attack that lets you shift 4 as your move action is plenty impressive, by itself....

You can't shift as a basic attack with this power. You can do so as a move action, of course, just as you can you any other movement technique for any other monk full discipline power.

 

[Mengu]

Here is some more unsolicited news for you. At this point in time, the next window they are accepting submissions is between October 1st and November 30th. Read this.

There will be at least 2 waves of errata before then. I already mentioned basic attacks are in the update team's radar. And every wave of errata has a chance of affecting the balance of a game mechanic. So we could tell you right now, yeah, it's cool for the monks to get some options for a basic attack, but that may not be true 4 months from now, when they start accepting submissions, and 4-6 months from then, when those articles start getting published.

And for the record, I think +2 damage on a theme is currently uncalled for, regardless of if you think monk unarmed attacks are weak. You're taking away other theme options from the monk by providing too strong of a benefit in a theme. Even the +2 to a defense is a mechanic I'm not fond of for the Order Adept. I would prefer to see some skill related benefits, rather than combat benefits, especially for a monk theme because I see them as skill oriented strikers.

For themes in general, I would not use Order Adept as a guide for anything because of the level 5 and 10 features, or Guardian because of the level 1 encounter power. I think these are above the power level of everything else that is currently out there for a theme.

 

[Artoomis]

Here is some more unsolicited news for you. At this point in time, the next window they are accepting submissions is between October 1st and November 30th. Read this.[/quote[

Thanks, I know this. Since I am not sure exactly how they are implementing this new approach to submission, I submitted anyway and did get a normal automated response. If I do not hear anything else, I will re-submit the concept between Oct 1 and Nov 30th.

There will be at least 2 waves of errata before then. I already mentioned basic attacks are in the update team's radar. And every wave of errata has a chance of affecting the balance of a game mechanic. So we could tell you right now, yeah, it's cool for the monks to get some options for a basic attack, but that may not be true 4 months from now, when they start accepting submissions, and 4-6 months from then, when those articles start getting published.

I agree that this whole effort may become moot, but, until then, there is no reason to stop working on it.

And for the record, I think +2 damage on a theme is currently uncalled for, regardless of if you think monk unarmed attacks are weak. You're taking away other theme options from the monk by providing too strong of a benefit in a theme. Even the +2 to a defense is a mechanic I'm not fond of for the Order Adept. I would prefer to see some skill related benefits, rather than combat benefits, especially for a monk theme because I see them as skill oriented strikers.

Duly noted. I'll think about it. I could see maybe swapping out the movement-related utilities for something skill-related, but the current ones allow a non-monk taking this theme to have some monk flavor in terms of movement. I could see doing something more related to "typical" monk-like skill-based abilities.

For themes in general, I would not use Order Adept as a guide for anything because of the level 5 and 10 features, or Guardian because of the level 1 encounter power. I think these are above the power level of everything else that is currently out there for a theme.

Again, duly noted. I'll continue to think about the right way to structure the theme - but I am not sure WotC even knows exactly how they want these themes to work.

Since the actual article submission is not likely to happen until very late in the year (if at all), I have lots of time to think about this and reconsider the mechanics.

Meantime, I can't see any good reason to not work on this. If some WotC employee sees this discussion and gets inspired to do something that makes this whole effort moot, I will be very happy indeed.

 

[bganon]

Duly noted. I'll think about it. I could see maybe swapping out the movement-related utilities for something skill-related, but the current ones allow a non-monk taking this theme to have some monk flavor in terms of movement. I could see doing something more related to "typical" monk-like skill-based abilities.

I think the utilities are nice and useful for non-monks, but why would a non-monk take this theme? The starting feature isn't worthwhile unless the character has melee at-wills usable unarmed, which leaves out every weapon-using class. For example, say a Fighter takes it and applies it to Cleave... now they can use Cleave as a BA, but only if they take -2 (or -3) to attack vs using their weapon, and the damage is reduced to 1d4. It's a terrible option, and if they don't use it then the level 5 feature is also useless.

The only non-Monk builds that would even think about taking the theme would be Vampires, maybe Brawler fighters, and perhaps some Deathpriest and Shapeshifter Druid variants.

 

[Artoomis]

I think the utilities are nice and useful for non-monks, but why would a non-monk take this theme? The starting feature isn't worthwhile unless the character has melee at-wills usable unarmed, which leaves out every weapon-using class. For example, say a Fighter takes it and applies it to Cleave... now they can use Cleave as a BA, but only if they take -2 (or -3) to attack vs using their weapon, and the damage is reduced to 1d4. It's a terrible option, and if they don't use it then the level 5 feature is also useless.

The only non-Monk builds that would even think about taking the theme would be Vampires, maybe Brawler fighters, and perhaps some Deathpriest and Shapeshifter Druid variants.

You're right, this only works well for a PC that wishes to attack unarmed, and there are not many of them. Still, the fact that not many may take this theme is perhaps not a reason to exclude it. Remember, one could specialize in using a Spiked Gauntlet or Talid (Simple One-handed Melee Weapon, +2 proficiency, Off-Hand) and use this theme to good effect, I think.

A fighter who for one reason or another keeps a hand free could Cleave as a basic attack with the off-hand (Spiked Gauntlet or Talid). I do not really know if this is a good concept for a fighter, honestly.

A ranger might also use this for Twin Strike, though this would mean one's primary weapon would likely be only 1d6 though with a +3 proficiency bonus without taking a feat for that, so maybe that woudl not be a bad choice. Every basic attack being Twin Strike could be worth it.

It's just one more option to consider. Granted, in most cases using a gauntlet (or otherwise attacking unarmed) is not the best choice, but this theme helps, I think, to make it at least a viable choice.

To support this better (and more explicitly), I've updated the theme's starting feature:

For the purposes of this theme, an unarmed attack means an attack made with one hand free and while not using any weapon other than one’s own body (hands, feat, elbows, knees, head etc.) or a weapon in the unarmed group

Also, there are two other reason a non-monk might want to take this class.

1. Having the psionic power source might prove useful in some circumstances.
2. Getting +2 to Will might prove valuable to low-will classes.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think the utilities are nice and useful for non-monks, but why would a non-monk take this theme? The starting feature isn't worthwhile unless the character has melee at-wills usable unarmed, which leaves out every weapon-using class. For example, say a Fighter takes it and applies it to Cleave... now they can use Cleave as a BA, but only if they take -2 (or -3) to attack vs using their weapon, and the damage is reduced to 1d4. It's a terrible option, and if they don't use it then the level 5 feature is also useless.

The only non-Monk builds that would even think about taking the theme would be Vampires, maybe Brawler fighters, and perhaps some Deathpriest and Shapeshifter Druid variants.

Actually if it is usable THAT much it might be pretty close to interestingly viable.

 

[DracoSuave]

Scaling bonuses to hit should only be in expertise feats, not in at-will powers, and certainly not in a power that's a basic attack. +1 is fine, but why the upgrade to +2?

Broken theme is broken. You shouldn't get free abilities from a theme after level 1, they need to be trade-offs.

I think it's too much work trying to shore up a weakness in concept that doesn't actually ask the question if that concept is mechanically weak. Is the unarmed monk inviable or not working? What does it need to make it work?

Is this just a round-about way of solving the percieved 'basic attack' issue? Is it just a way to add damage to a class that doesn't really need it as much as you perceive? There's other ways to solve the problem other than sticking on random damage adders here and there.

Taking a feat that gives you +4 damage per turn on an unarmed hit that stacks with weapon focus against your primary target, and +2 damage against additional targets?!? Zounds that's way too amazing for a class that's not actually suffering in damage.

I get what you're trying to do, you're trying to 'fix' it so that unarmed strikes matter for a monk, and this is a laudable goal. However, I don't think the solution is 'Randomly add damage everywhere' given their damage is fairly balanced as a striker as-is.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Right, if I understand the problem correctly there is a very simple fix. Make MBA an implement power for monks. This would require just a simple errata to Unarmed Strike. Now your Ki focus applies to those attacks (it can keep the weapon keyword too I THINK, but having both can get pretty wonky so whatever needs doing there). At that point you've solved the issue with gaining an enhancement bonus, correct? Perhaps there also needs to be a 'use dex' thrown in there, but I'm not sure.