Proposed Wager with DracoSuave - Blurred Step

[Piratecat]

The effects here are -very- similiar.

Hmm. While I understand your point, I'm not sure about your example; there really is a huge difference in those. Being invisible doesn't protect you in the least from blasts and bursts, while restricting smite shuts those down completely against anyone but the paladin.

Incidentally, I think that Obryn is going to loooose, mostly because he limited the errata to appearing in May.

 

[Artoomis]

FWIW. I am on record with WotC as asking for them to publish a rules update for Blurred Step. Note: "rules update" is the correct term, not "errata."

 

[Obryn]

Incidentally, I think that Obryn is going to loooose, mostly because he limited the errata to appearing in May.

This is, in fact, my concern. But honestly, I didn't want to delay the outcome an extra month or two. How boring would that be?

Besides, if it's in an upcoming update, I can still claim a moral victory.*

-O



*Note: Moral victories are the ones in which the phrase "Neener-Neener" is used.

 

[DracoSuave]

Hmm. While I understand your point, I'm not sure about your example; there really is a huge difference in those. Being invisible doesn't protect you in the least from blasts and bursts, while restricting smite shuts those down completely against anyone but the paladin.

Incidentally, I think that Obryn is going to loooose, mostly because he limited the errata to appearing in May.

Well, yeah, but one being an epic level encounter power, and the other being a heroic at-will, the difference in power level is actually understandable. But they fulfill similiar roles: Lock down attention onto the battlemind.

Let's be honest tho, if the mob is an area-using monster, then 'I have a battlemind standing beside it' is pretty much the foil for that. I wouldn't be using Mind Snare on him tho, I'd probably use Twisted Eye, which is the Battlemind's equivalent of Enfeebling Strike. And so good.

I submit that yes, the battlemind is not as sticky as a fighter. But that's like saying a battlepriest doesn't heal as well as a cleric. So what? Those are the classes that are the top of their respective curves for that. You -can't- exceed those levels, nor should you.

But look at the Paladin. Is that a terrible defender? No, not at all. He can do that job very effectively, but he can't rely on Divine Challenge to do all the work, considering it's not a lot of damage, and a lot more restrictive on the paladin's actions. He needs to use his at-wills and powers to supplement his defending, but when he does, he does things a fighter simply cannot.

Battleminds are kinda like that. No, they aren't as 'sticky' as a fighter. But they do stuff no fighter can. Hell, they do stuff no defender can, and do it very well, and that stuff they DO do, is terribly good things for defenders to do.

And every defender has their weakness. Battleminds happen to share the same weakness as wardens, that an enemy that shift-charges is hard for them to deal with. The difference tho, is a battlemind can have at-will powers that negate that weakness, a warden simply cannot. (and no, if Nature's Grasp were sufficient to stop this tactic, blurred step would have done the same for the battlemind.)

 

[keterys]

Well, yeah, but one being an epic level encounter power, and the other being a heroic at-will

That was a heroic encounter power, actually. Augment 2 == encounter-equivalent.

Compare to another heroic encounter power, Mire the Mind (Warlock 7):
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: 1d10 + Charisma modifier psychic damage, and you and all of your allies in range are invisible to the target until the end of your next turn.
Fey Pact: You gain a power bonus to Stealth checks equal to your Intelligence modifier until the end of the encounter.

 

[DracoSuave]

That was a heroic encounter power, actually. Augment 2 == encounter-equivalent.

Compare to another heroic encounter power, Mire the Mind (Warlock 7):
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: 1d10 + Charisma modifier psychic damage, and you and all of your allies in range are invisible to the target until the end of your next turn.
Fey Pact: You gain a power bonus to Stealth checks equal to your Intelligence modifier until the end of the encounter.

The at-will power still renders a vulnerable ally invisible, which is huge utility.

 

[keterys]

Sure - a lot like how Eyebite or Enfeebling Strike or Vicious Mockery (all at-wills) work.

 

[DracoSuave]

Sure - a lot like how Eyebite or Enfeebling Strike or Vicious Mockery (all at-wills) work.

Enfeebling Strike is closer to Twisted Eye in terms of how it works.

But as for Eyebite, yeah, sure, I suppose an at-will that makes you invisible until the start of your next turn is the same utility as an at-will that makes someone else invisible until the end of your next turn.

Except that Eyebite is self-preservation and cannot be used for combat advantage as well, and Mind Snare makes someone -else- invisible, reducing the number of potential targets, giving them -5 to get hit with melee and ranged attacks (which is the vast majority of what monsters throw out), at the same time as giving them +2 combat advantage, and making them immune to the opportunity attacks of your targetted foe.


But otherwise, TOTALLY the same.

 

[keterys]

It's crazy, but strikers and defenders get different styles of powers.

And -2 to all attacks is often more valuable for defending a group and avoiding damage than making one character invisible.

The point is, that power is easily comparable to other powers in terms of power and style of effect.

Battleminds certainly get some interesting powers. Some of them quite powerful. Some of them quite effective. They also get a bunch of things that work... problematically. At least a couple things I'm not so sure work the way they thought they worked. But, who knows, we'll find out eventually. There is a thread on the WotC errata boards discussing the Battlemind and its issues, so WotC will review their decisions at some point no doubt. And maybe just ignore the people complaining, cause it's all according to plan

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think the arguments with Blurred Step really devolve down to interpretation of the rules.

1) Do you know what square an enemy is shifting into before he shifts?

2) Does shifting into that target square abort the enemy's shift?

3) If not 2 then does it at least cost the enemy one square of his shift?

I believe the answers to questions 1 and 2 are both yes, but its possible to argue it either way. Number 1 has a pretty good case for it, number 3 I think pretty much HAS to follow #1 and at that point #2 really only matters for the small subset of multi-square-shifting enemies.

In other words if I can Blurred Step in such a way as to stop cold many enemy shifts and at least know where the rest are going so I can work out the correct square to shift into then I can negate a lot of shift-charging.

Given that I can minor action mark anything within 3 squares of me and that I have Mind Spike to punish a lot of attacks with (plus an OA and potentially extra damage from say Whirling Defense or 1 augment Twisted Eye) as long as I stay fairly close to the people I'm defending I can put a horrendous amount of punishment on anyone that goes past me.

Think about it. If the target I'm defending is 2 squares behind me and the enemy shift-charges I can Blurred Step either to block or worst case to a square from which I can Mind Spike him. Add onto that I am pushing him around to where I want him with Bull's Strength or enhancing Mind Spike with Whirling Defense and I'm not really all that scared that things are going to go wrong unless that enemy is a really major opponent that doesn't mind taking damage equal to what he dishes out and/or taking an OA from Twisted Eye.

A Battlemind that is built with defending as its primary focus looks to me like it can do that job quite well. Selecting Bull's Strength, Twisted Eye, and Whirling Defense as my at-wills is going to give me good defender ability coupled with possible judicious use of an augment now and then in a tight spot. Battlemind level 1 dailies don't add a lot to that, though Steel Unity Strike could easily drill enough punishment into an opponent at low levels to simply keep them away and Psionic Anchor has some good possibilities as well (though the enemy will get in one shot before you can pull them away and the timing could be tricky). Allies to Enemies is pretty situational but again its just adding to the punishment (I mean why bother to go past the Battlemind just to end up being Mind Spiked AND forced to MBA an ally for your trouble).

If Battlemind DOES fall short as a defender, its certainly not going to be by much. Frankly I'd be perfectly happy with a 'Blurred Step will NEVER receive errata' wager, lol.