Psionic vs Arcane: Build me some characters.

[Psion]

Id have to disagree here
It depends on how you use your caster, but for my wizards I dont pick useful situational spells. Those are the spells I stick on scrolls: passwall,knock,alarm,erase

I would agree. Those are precisely the sorts of spells I would stash away as a sorcerer, leaving my more combat-pertinent spells memorized. Which I would agree is less pertinent to your example.

Further it is a fair comparrison
Psions get scroll equivalents.
Psions get wand equivalents.

But wizards rely on them more, given their preparation requirement. In the case of psions and sorcerers, who can choose their spells/powers, it's more or less jest and endurance book, whereas for the wizard, they are an enduranance and flexibility boost.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Rejs_Thunderwood, it appears you haven't calculated the possibility of missing with the scorching rays into the equation. Judging from the stats you gave, it seems that your sorceror will have a quite respectable +8 to hit with his ranged touch attacks but, given that the halfling rogue is likely to have a touch AC of 15 or so, that is likely to suck 30% of the damage up right there. Hezrou and Fire elementals also have halfway decent touch ACs so you may well miss a few times there too.

Something to take into consideration when analyzing the damage.

 

[Thanee]

Hezrou touch AC is 9. I didn't figure it in in my above post, since the miss balances with a crit (4.75% for double damage, 5% for no damage) in this case.

But right on the other ones.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Majere]

Rogue: 1 Maximized, Empowered Scorching Ray (depending on DM's interpretation of how these interact), 4th lvl slot, 1 use Max rod.

Treant: 1 Maximized Fireball, 3rd lvl slot, 1 use Max rod

Dread Wraith: Four Empowered Magic Missiles, 4 third level slots

Hezrou: Four Enervations…possibly including another or an (empowered) fireball depending on the rolls, 3 fourth lvl slots 1 fifth lvl slot for good measure. Counts as damage, right?

Nasty Fire Elemental: Can’t empower Cone of Cold (waaaah), and they’ve got REALLY good reflex saves (double waaah) so…five empowered, maximized magic missiles? Using rods and feats as necessary about 2 fifth lvl slots, 2 fourth lvl slots and 2 uses empower rod, and 1 third lvl slot

Rogue, Touch ac 20 (Mage armor,Dex,Ring[+2]), mages needs 11 to hit
Average Damage: 30.24
Slots: 2.20 4th and 2.20 Uses maximize rod

Treant: Saves on a 20
Damage: 90(45)
Slots: 1.05 3rd level slots 1.05 Uses of maximize rod

Wraith:
Average damage: 5d4+5= 17.5
Slots: 6 3rd level

Hezrou: Touch ac (9), Mage missess on a 1, Sr 19 (mage needs 7)
Average levels removed: 1.995 per spell

"Each negative level gives a creature a –1 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, ability checks, and effective level"
Doesnt seem to affect hp unless this has changed since the SRD (I vaguely recall something about -5 hp ? Can someone confirm that ?)

Ill assume you keep asting enervation until It dies. (6hits on average required to hit)
Slots: 6.83 4th level

Elemental:
By here the maximize rod is used up Along with:
9.903 4th level slots
7.05 3rd level slots

The sorcerer has no spells that can harm the elemental at 2nd,3rd, or 4th level. Allowing use of 2nd level slots to cast 1st level spells. that leaves:

5th: 4 Maximized magic missiles
3rd: 1 Empowered Magic Missile
1st&2nd: 16 Magic missiles (6 empowered)

Damage:
Maximized: 25
Empowered: 26.25

Slots :3rd, 6*1st, 6 Uses of empower rod.

Sorcerer is left with 8 2nd, 1 5th and 2 1st level powers:

Comments
The sorcerer manages to kill everything dead, where as the psion did not using pure damage.
The sorcerer does indeed have more left than the psion which used dominate, but only the 5th level slot is significant.
The sorcerer's lack of spells is much more of a disadvantage to him than the psions apparent lack of spells it appears from this build.
The sorcerer take an average of 16 rounds to achieve this

The psion takes an average of :
10.3 rounds for the first psion
14.2 rounds for the second.

Interestingly, with the use of meta magic rods the psion seems fairly well balanced so far.

Majere

 

[Thanee]

Oh, and could someone actually try to make an example without Metamagic Rods?

I don't think they are well-suited to show how good the spellcasting of a class is, since they alter things quite a bit (and the same item could be made for a psion, so it's really not much of a loss), by allowing to exceed their actual spellcasting ability.

It would be best to use only "passive" magic items (like stat boosters), actually.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Slots: 2.20 4th and 2.20 Uses maximize rod
Slots: 1.05 3rd level slots 1.05 Uses of maximize rod

3.25 of 3 uses.

Hezrou: Touch ac (9), Mage missess on a 1, Sr 19 (mage needs 7)
Average levels removed: 1.995 per spell

2.5 x 0.7 x 0,95 + 2.5 x 0.7 x 0.05 x 0.95 (double damage on a crit) = 1.745

Interestingly, with the use of meta magic rods the psion seems fairly well balanced so far.

Heh. But this only compares the spellcasting versus manifesting ability. Not all the stuff outside this comparison (skills, feats, quicker power access, flexibility, etc), which is a huge advantage for the psion!

And, as I said above, if only by using Metamagic Rods excessively the sorcerer can keep up, than things are very, very wrong!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Shadowdweller]

Rogue, Touch ac 20 (Mage armor,Dex,Ring[+2]), mages needs 11 to hit

A slot could be saved here by substituting one of the first level spells (Enlarge Person, if we're going brute damage) for True Strike. Still takes two rounds, but should free up a higher level spot and another Maxmize charge.

Doesnt seem to affect hp unless this has changed since the SRD (I vaguely recall something about -5 hp ? Can someone confirm that ?)

It does indeed lose 5 hps. Can't give a SRD reference, but you'll find it under Energy Drain and Negative Levels, p.293 of the DMG.

Average levels removed: 1.995 per spell

One can crit with Enervation as well (for a doubled effect). Is this being taken into account as well?

I don't think they are well-suited to show how good the spellcasting of a class is, since they alter things quite a bit (and the same item could be made for a psion, so it's really not much of a loss), by allowing to exceed their actual spellcasting ability.

Of course while we're at it, how about those nifty little psionic items like Psionitrices?

 

[Thanee]

That's the same, I'd assume those can be used for an arcanist as well.

But they hardly are in the same league, when it comes to the effect.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Majere]

It does indeed lose 5 hps. Can't give a SRD reference, but you'll find it under Energy Drain and Negative Levels, p.293 of the DMG.

One can crit with Enervation as well (for a doubled effect). Is this being taken into account as well?

Ok
With the hp loss then there is a strong argument that you may reach a point where your fireball is more effective than more enervations, but Im not sure the overall effect off the top of my head.

The enervation numbers I posted are slightly misleading.
The average damage posed is the average level loss per spell including the following effects:
SR, Crits, Automatic missess.
(Before SR the average damage is 2.5 (4.875 on a crit including needing to confirm))

The average spells taken is the average number required to to take the creature to 0 hd. This is not a simple matter of dividing the HD by the average level loss, but longer calculation taken out to include 99.9% of probably results.

As ever if I made mistakes Ill check em gladly.

Majere

 

[Majere]

2.5 x 0.7 x 0,95 + 2.5 x 0.7 x 0.05 x 0.95 (double damage on a crit) = 1.745

Oops, I was using 0.8 not 0.7, Ill got update that in a minute !!

Majere