D&D 4E Realistic Strength and Carrying Capacity for 4E

[redmagerush]

I don't know - especially with respect to the second feat of strength you describe. Perhaps most professional and amateur sportsmen can do that, but that does not equate to most men. This could imply similar base numbers, but a a different multiplier to determine maximum lift, say 1.5 x the base numbers, rather than 2 x the base numbers, as it stands now.

Take me as an example. I'm 5'8" (barely) and I'll admit to being pretty weak. I haven't worked out out regularly since I was 13. At work moving boxes that weigh 60 pounds proves difficult for me sometimes.

However, I can still pick up my 240 pound father and carry him around on my back or shoulders at a decent speed for several minutes at the least before I being to feel it.

 

[Lorgrom]

Well for starters we have always used the encumbrance rules and have found them easly managable.

For the love of all that's holy, I just hope that they finally ditch the archaic encumbrance system and do lifting/carrying as Strength checks. So much more in-line with the rest of the d20 System and so much easier to manage.

Roll a d20 + Strength. Compare the DC.

Succeed? It's a light load.
Fail? It's a medium load.
Fail by 5? It's a heavy load.
Fail by 10? It's an extreme load, and you can only take 5' steps with it.
Fail by 15? You can't budge it.

Take a bonus if you're only trying to push/pull the thing. Take a penalty if it's moving and you're trying to catch it.

Done. So much easier.

The biggest problem with this suggestion is the lack of consistency. When you get a bad roll, you all of a sudden can't carry the armor you have been wearing for the last 3 months. While at the same time on a natural 20, you can all of a sudden move that 1-ton bolder that no one in the village has been able to move?

 

[mmadsen]

I think (mostly intuitively - I don't really have RL numbers to compare) that in 3.X edition, the carrying capacity table overestimates average strength and carrying capacity. Heroes are, of course, above average, but that is reflected in their higher than average stats, not in the stats themselves being skewed upwards.

Is the average stat in D&D an average for adult, 21st-century Americans? Or is it an average for quasi-medieval men? When it comes to carrying capacity, I suspect a pre-industrial farmer can carry much more than a modern office worker -- even one with superior size from better nutrition.

When realism and gameplay clash, gameplay wins, but since in this case they don't really clash (encumberance, for example, is generally only assessed when players try to carry a clearly ridiculous amount of stuff), it would be nice to have some realistic numbers.

This is an important point: realism does not mean complexity. A rule can be realistic without slowing down the game, and a rule can be unrealistic without being quick and easy.

According to the carrying capacity table, a strength 10 individual can carry 100 pounds of equipment and lift/stagger with 200 pounds and a strength 11 inividual can carry 115 pounds and lift/stagger with 230 pounds. I feel this is way too much - I cannot really imagine an average person lifting 230 pounds off the ground and staggering with it (and this is different from benchpress or similar exercises). On the other hand, I must say I do not know how much an average person can lift off the ground - anybody has any numbers on that? If it were up to you, what carrying capacity would you assign to each strength score to make it more realistic?

There is a world of difference between how much one can lift in a competition deadlift -- barbell with "Olympic" plates, off the ground -- and how much one can lift from a few inches lower or a few feet higher.

An athletic guy can deadlift 300 lbs and can "rack pull" -- deadlift from around knee height -- maybe 400 lbs. Similarly, an athletic guy may be able to deep-squat with 300 lbs on his back, but he can walk out of the rack with 400 or 450 lbs across his back and stagger about a bit.

Competitive strength athletes can double those numbers.

 

[mmadsen]

A Spartan hoplite was considered a marvel for being able to march around all day carring 60 pounds of equipment (including armor). That'd be Str 14-15 (Light Load).

Since they were likely not big men, that would have been a decent load.

From the ProLite site:

An individual in good health should be able to carry 20% of their body weight - a 40 lb pack for a 200 pound person. Intermediates should be able to carry 25% of their body weight - a 50 lb pack for a 200 pound person. Experienced and well conditioned backpackers can carry 35% of their body weight - a 70 lb pack for a 200 pound person.​

 

[mmadsen]

When you try to pick something up. Make the strength check to determine how bad the load is. Done.

Why would you make something that is extremely predictable in real life extremely wild an unpredictable in the game?

 

[mmadsen]

Right now, it is easy in the game to make a halfling that is way stronger than the average human. That doesn't seem reasonable to me, given the relative sizes of halflings and humans.

A chimpanzee is roughly halfling size and much, much stronger than a normal man.

 

[monboesen]

A chimpanzee is roughly halfling size and much, much stronger than a normal man.

And that is true for all animals (not that they are stronger than a normal man, but that they comparatively are stronger by far than humans).

 

[Tewligan]

However, I can still pick up my 240 pound father and carry him around on my back or shoulders at a decent speed for several minutes at the least before I being to feel it.

"He ain't heavy, he's my father!"

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

And that is true for all animals (not that they are stronger than a normal man, but that they comparatively are stronger by far than humans).

That's essentially due to a chemical governor that keeps our muscles from operating at full capacity most all of the time.

 

[Tewligan]

I think (mostly intuitively - I don't really have RL numbers to compare) that in 3.X edition, the carrying capacity table overestimates average strength and carrying capacity. Heroes are, of course, above average, but that is reflected in their higher than average stats, not in the stats themselves being skewed upwards. When realism and gameplay clash, gameplay wins, but since in this case they don't really clash (encumberance, for example, is generally only assessed when players try to carry a clearly ridiculous amount of stuff), it would be nice to have some realistic numbers.

I can almost guarantee that encumbrance won't play a more 'realistic' role in 4e than it does than in 3e. In fact, I'd say it's a good guess that encumbrance will be even LESS strict than it is now, because they're probably going to apply the "if it's not fun, it doesn't belong in the game" school of thought to the idea that characters shouldn't be able to carry around everything they think they might want or need.

Oh, and I'm not saying this to be snarky about 4e, in case anyone is angrily reaching for the "Report post" button. I really do think that the inconvenience of encumbrance is very likely to be one of the things going the way of the dodo in order to keep the game "fun", in light of other statements about what is and isn't fun by the designers.