Recruiting for Blood and Guts: Modern Military PbP (done recruiting for now)

[kingpaul]

Well, as the history originally stands, grandpa was in WWII and dad in Viet Nam. I was just thinking about ages and didn't know if another generation should've been inserted in there or not.

 

[ragboy]

First off, I'm really enjoying the pbp game as a lurker, so I don't want to come off as a total ass, but I have issue with this statement (if I'm understanding what Ranger Rick is saying here):

OOC: think of this thing as a light tank. It has a small turret containing the big gun (25mm) and a 7.62 mm coaxially mounted with it. You could fire it from inside, but you would have a better view of the whole terrain and people involved. Also, one may think you are yellow if you hide in the turret. I assume you have a flak jacket.

You shoot from the inside. It's the only way to shoot the main gun and coax, and have any chance of hitting (or properly targeting) your intended target.

Also, driving into a potentially hot situation with the driver's hatch open is the quick way out of country with a shiny new flag. Nobody calls you 'yella' for staying inside the tank. That's what it's there for.

Again, forgive me if I misunderstood what you said, and I swear I'm not being an ass, but military inaccuracy just bugs the crap out of me.

I'd recommend this site: http://www.army-technology.com/projects/bradley/

And particularly this part, for more detailed info on the Bradley fire control system:

FIRE CONTROL AND OBSERVATION

The gunner is equipped with a Raytheon Integrated Sight Unit (ISU) which includes a day/thermal sight of magnification x4 and x12. An optical relay provides the image of the gunner's sight to the commander. The gunner also has periscopes for forward and side observation. A daytime sight system for the gunner or commander is provided as backup to the primary sight.

The driver is equipped with three forward periscopes plus one periscope to the left. The central periscope can be replaced with the Northrop Grumman (formerly Litton) AN/VVS-2 Driver's Night Viewer with a 25mm second generation image intensifier. M2 Bradleys will be equipped with the DRS Technologies Driver's Vision Enhancer (DVE) from 2005.

 

[Bobitron]

Thanks, ragboy.

 

[Ranger Rick]

First off, I'm really enjoying the pbp game as a lurker, so I don't want to come off as a total ass, but I have issue with this statement (if I'm understanding what Ranger Rick is saying here):



You shoot from the inside. It's the only way to shoot the main gun and coax, and have any chance of hitting (or properly targeting) your intended target.

Also, driving into a potentially hot situation with the driver's hatch open is the quick way out of country with a shiny new flag. Nobody calls you 'yella' for staying inside the tank. That's what it's there for.

Again, forgive me if I misunderstood what you said, and I swear I'm not being an ass, but military inaccuracy just bugs the crap out of me.

I'd recommend this site: http://www.army-technology.com/projects/bradley/

And particularly this part, for more detailed info on the Bradley fire control system:

FIRE CONTROL AND OBSERVATION

The gunner is equipped with a Raytheon Integrated Sight Unit (ISU) which includes a day/thermal sight of magnification x4 and x12. .......

Thanks ragboy, but let me tell you where I am coming from. 1st, I am thinking old school so I might be biased as I have never gotten close to a bradley, but I have to a M1.

Sensors are great for battlefield acquistion, but not for being able to see everywhere in a SAR mission. Second, I do believe that the guns can be fired from a person standing up. It is a crew of 3, gunner, driver and vehicle commander In this case I am not sure who the gunner might be. Sgt is the one standing up. Third, collateral damage would be a big consideration. One should have the vehicle commander ensuring that colleteral damage is zero. It is called covering your ass. If any civilians took a bullet, the IG/media/centcom would be on our rear very hard. If the gunner is looking through the sensors, and yet the vehicle commander is up top, the vision angle card is null and void.

Ragboy, do you have actual experience with the M2? If so I would love to pick your brain.

PS one or two of those photos show the driver's hatch open.

 

[ragboy]

Thanks ragboy, but let me tell you where I am coming from. 1st, I am thinking old school so I might be biased as I have never gotten close to a bradley, but I have to a M1.

If you were Infantry, then I understand the frame of reference ('yella' for buttoning up, etc). I always respected the crunchies. I'm going to use the term 'tank' in the following, but I mean either the M1A1 (which I have the most hands-on experience with) and the Bradley. They both have very similar fire control systems, and with the exception of the loader on the tank and infantry on the Brad, similar crews/tactics.

Sensors are great for battlefield acquistion, but not for being able to see everywhere in a SAR mission.

Okay, so absolutely not, and I can tell you precisely why.

When you are training on the tank, you learn to shoot with fire control from the gunner's station, from the TC station, and completely manually (ever cranked an M1A1 turret 360 degrees? You don't want to). With fire control (from gunner or TC station), you have to be 70-80% accurate or you can't even sit in the seat. Manual from the TC station is not possible with any degree of accuracy. Manual from the gunner's station, you have to be 45-50% accurate. Like 50% is doing VERY well. And that's with the tank completely still. In my four years, I knew one gunner (mine) that could consistently hit over 50% using the manual system. And I stress, the vehicle cannot be moving at all. Here are the main reasons why you want to use your fire control system for target acquisition and putting steel on steel:

* Laser Range Finder - Accurate ranges out to about 4000 meters IIRC
* Turret Stabilization - Shoot on the move at a moving target with uncanny accuracy (I watched tanks/Brads consistently score catastrophic kills at 3000 meters, at night with both target vehicle and shooting tank on the move [2500 meters for the Brad])
* Thermal Sights - Hot spot = Kill. This sight has great resolution, even during the day and through any 'weather' (German fog, Saudi/Iraqi dust/oil fires, etc.
* Support Systems - Everything from wind to temperature adjustments, calcs on ammo type, etc.
* TC 'independent' sight - The TC can lay the gunner on a target, disengage his sight, lay on another target and once Target 1 is a smoking wreck, punch a button and Wala! Gunner's on Target 2.
* New stuff I'm not aware of... I've been out for over 10 years now... Heck...almost 15... ug. All kinds of namby-pamby video screens and cup holders (now who sounds old school?).

Here's how the chain of responsibility goes:
TC: Lay on the target for the gunner (meaning get the target in the gunner's sights), command ammo, drive speed, direction, etc. Spot the next target,
Gunner: Kill what he's told to when he's told to.
Driver: Drive
Loader: Load (in the M1A1) -- both driver and loader have some target acquisition duties, but these are minimal and once the shooting starts, they're doing their jobs exclusively.)

At the ranges you're talking about for a typical engagement (especially out in the middle of the desert), 3000 meter spotting and shot is not going to be possible, even with a manual sight (IIRC the M1A1 is sighted manually to 1000-1500 meters...). These are direct-fire, big-bore mobile sniper rifles (for lack of a better analogy).

Second, I do believe that the guns can be fired from a person standing up. It is a crew of 3, gunner, driver and vehicle commander In this case I am not sure who the gunner might be. Sgt is the one standing up.

The main gun/coax can be fired from whereever the gunner or TC happen to be, as long as they can reach the cadillacs and pull the trigger. But, again, I'd put forth the 'why,' as above. You can do all the eye-balling and Kentucky windage you want, as long as you're willing to answer to your commander when you can't consisently hit a moving vehicle at 2000 - 3000 meters and have to stop everytime you fire the main gun or coax. And you can keep poking your head out of the hatches with binoculars as long as you don't mind getting hit in the head with everything from hot lead to chunks of rock. I knew a couple of TC's that preferred the hatch open, until we started taking artillery fire...then everyone was 'yella' I knew one driver that drove with his hatch open all the way through the war, but that was because he was extremely claustrophobic.

Another reason for having the hatches closed in a combat situation is that the NBC overpressurization system doesn't work unless the hatches are sealed (not sure if the Bradley has this...think it does). You want that working when they drop nerve agent on you...Unless you like dancing the herky-jerky for a few seconds, then filling your drawers and dying really really ugly.

Third, collateral damage would be a big consideration. One should have the vehicle commander ensuring that colleteral damage is zero. It is called covering your ass. If any civilians took a bullet, the IG/media/centcom would be on our rear very hard. If the gunner is looking through the sensors, and yet the vehicle commander is up top, the vision angle card is null and void.

I'm not absolutely certain on the hatch position options on the Brad commander hatch (I'm googlefu lazy today), but on the M1A1 tank commander's hatch, you had Open (hatch 90 degrees to the turret top), Closed (totally sealed), and (can't remember the damn term -- but...)'half-open', where the hatch was parallel with the turret top, but lifted out of the commander's hole. Basically all that did was give the TC enough room to view through his periscopes (due to the bulky CVC helmet) and not get his fat head blown off (or a mortar dropped on him and everyone in the tank). I know the driver, gunner, TC and 'passengers' on a Bradley have copious periscopes to look through, so if close-in friendlies or civilians are an issue, you can see just fine through them. If these soft targets are more than a couple hundred yards away, however, you're better off with the TC's sight.

And the less politically correct response to your collateral damage question (especially if the civilians are close in or mixed up with your targets) is that you're basically using a sledgehammer to open walnuts, and trying not to hit the pecans on the same table. Both of these weapons (120mm and 25mm) fire a depleted uranium needle, or a big basket of greek fire, accurately to 2500 - 3000 meters. When that needle hits up to and including several inches of steel, it goes right through. When the basket hits the steel, it punches through and explodes. I watched an M1A1 kill two T-55's with one shot. (Both 'turrets flying through the air Hollywood explosion' catastrophic kills). The Bradley is comparable on lightly armored vehicles. If there are civilians mixed up in that area, collateral damage ain't preventable, unless you just don't fire. And you don't perform 'suppressing fire' with a tank/light tank main gun unless you're expecting the kill something. In fact, on the coax engagement during gunnery, if you accidently fire the main gun at the troop targets, you pass the engagement, as the troops were 'suppressed.'

Ragboy, do you have actual experience with the M2? If so I would love to pick your brain.

I was in for four years loading/driving/shooting M1A1's, but I was in different Cav units in Germany and Saudi/Iraq. We worked very closely with the Scouts in their Bradleys. As far as performance, gunnery, etc. I know quite a lot about the Brad, but I have very little hands-on experience. I've done and/or seen the following:

* Shot the main gun and coax (twice)
* Drove it from point A to point B in a motor pool
* Helped pull the pack (engine)
* Sat in the back and played poker until my eyes bled.
* Changed the track (once -- much easier than an M1A1...)
* Watched one melt to the tracks when it was hit by a Hellfire missile fired by the unit's brigade commander...not a shining moment.
* Watched many many gunneries and field problems (it keeps up nicely with the M1A1)
* Watched it in actual combat.

On the M1A1, I've done everything you can do with it, including running over a car (demonstration for the Germans), blowing off the first two roadwheels on a landmine, driving it where it was vowed 'not possible for a tank that heavy', pulling every single nut, bolt, cable and hose (and putting them back on...the correct way!) etc... But I digress...

PS one or two of those photos show the driver's hatch open.

Absolutely. When you're not in combat, you drive hatch open, tank commander and loader hanging out the top of the turret waving at beautiful women, etc. It's the best way to see/drive/maneuver/look at beautiful women. Those pictures were most likely taken in that situation. I'm not saying NO ONE drives into battle with their hatch open; I'm just saying that NO SANE PERSON does.

 

[Ranger Rick]

Ragboy,

Thank you. I had driven a 113 and that was something you wanted to stick your head out of. The TI sights where not very helpful.

I was in 20 years ago and I went around in LPCs. My avatar was my unit patch. I had talked with some tankers in the early 80's who where in Germany and they all said that with the M1, they tinkered with the engines and would travel 90-100 MPH (not kph) on the german autobahn. Where you able to do the same thing?

 

[ragboy]

Thank you. I had driven a 113 and that was something you wanted to stick your head out of. The TI sights where not very helpful.

Yeah. I wouldn't be caught sober in one of those things. Aluminum can deathtrap, that thing is.

I was in 20 years ago and I went around in LPCs. My avatar was my unit patch. I had talked with some tankers in the early 80's who where in Germany and they all said that with the M1, they tinkered with the engines and would travel 90-100 MPH (not kph) on the german autobahn. Where you able to do the same thing.

That was an urban legend that every tanker that came before me swore that he'd done/seen done. I never saw it. I know it's possible, but it's extremely bad for the tank (and the autobahn). At about 60-70 mph, the track will come completely apart (this I know from at least an equal amount of stress from climbing an incline that was too steep breaking the track completely in half on my wingman's tank in German maneuvers). But conceivably, I know the engine/transmission has no such upper limit as far as torque goes (for instance, you can tow another M1A1).

And even driving 45 mph (top official speed), you're tearing up secondary roads. Typical roadmarch speed is about 25-30 mph. By the end of my tour (Spring '90), we rarely left the base unless it was with tanks loaded on HET's (semitruck with a lowboy trailer) due to the fall of East Germany (justification) and the havoc we wreaked when we road marched.

All: Sorry...didn't mean to hijack your OOC thread. Feel free to e-mail me if you have other questions....

 

[kingpaul]

All: Sorry...didn't mean to hijack your OOC thread. Feel free to e-mail me if you have other questions....

Its not bothered me. Go ahead and keep talking.

 

[Bobitron]

Its not bothered me. Go ahead and keep talking.

Nor me. Glad to hear some insight.

 

[Ranger Rick]

Ditto on the hi jack.

As for an urban legend, I must have met some of the creators, because these tanks all had 105 guns, it was when the M1 was introduced.

Well from now on I will have the hatch closed. Thanks for the info. Please tell us about further inaccuracy's.