Doug McCrae
Legend
I believe it started with HackMaster in 2001.
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Retro-gaming
- Thread starter Lars Porsenna
- Start date
tylerthehobo
Explorer
You mean you don't just pass around your old Moldvay boxed set for everyone to reference, while they're eating snacks?
Dyson Logos
Hero
You mean you don't just pass around your old Moldvay boxed set for everyone to reference, while they're eating snacks?
The newest player in my Moldvay game showed up with his own copy of the rules.
Without covers.
Without first & second pages.
Without one of the staples.
Held together with scotch tape.
Mephistopheles
First Post
I think the evolution of D&D into a more granular tactical experience is largely responsible for the momentum that the retro movement is picking up.
(Consider the next two paragraphs covered by an "in my experience" qualifier.)
3E didn't seem so complex to begin with, and it moved along at a good pace. As the characters increased in level, however, the number and interactions of rules multiplied and the speed of play slowed to a crawl. After a period of growing frustration the straw that broke the back of my 3E group came when a climactic fight couldn't be resolved in a single four hour session of gaming (the group was a mix of tenth and eleventh level characters).
4E has certainly simplified things to the point that you don't have the frequent rule referencing of 3E, and yet even at low levels the combats take as long to resolve as mid-high level 3E combats. The combat may be moving faster round to round during that time but the pace of the game as a whole still moves at a crawl.
So where does that leave me? It leaves me looking for a game that can keep the bigger picture moving along at a decent clip. I'm still playing 4E but my enjoyment of it is straining; I can understand how the retro movement is building steam.
Nellisir
Hero
I can only speak for myself. I started playing at the tail end of 1e, played all through 2e & 3e, and have essentially stopped with 4e. It's partially economics, it's partially the game, it's partially I'm just tired and don't want to learn something new.
I don't play at the moment, but I do "fiddle" with rules and setting "fluff", and I like the simplicity and adaptability of the retro-games, particularly Swords & Wizardry. I can add all sorts of little rulesets to get the game I want, and still have one-line stat blocks. I was, and am, a big fan of 3e, but house-ruling 3e was largely a matter of taking stuff out, not adding stuff in, and I'm finding the latter easier and more enjoyable.
Plus, I can concentrate on creating, not being a rules mechanic.
I don't play at the moment, but I do "fiddle" with rules and setting "fluff", and I like the simplicity and adaptability of the retro-games, particularly Swords & Wizardry. I can add all sorts of little rulesets to get the game I want, and still have one-line stat blocks. I was, and am, a big fan of 3e, but house-ruling 3e was largely a matter of taking stuff out, not adding stuff in, and I'm finding the latter easier and more enjoyable.
Plus, I can concentrate on creating, not being a rules mechanic.
dm4hire
Explorer
I'd seen C&C several times in the past but just ignored it 'til recently. I like what I've seen but was disappointed to find out that they are coming out with a new print, with changes, later this year. I haven't picked up the monster book yet so will wait and get the new one due this month. I do love that they only charge 20 a book (less on Amazon).
Treebore
First Post
You can order straight from the Trolls now. Meaning, its printed. Its in the hands of fans. Several of whom have posted to the TLG boards about how pleased they are with the cosmetic changes. I have yet to see anyone look for spelling errors and errata issues though. Still, the Trolls have steadily gotten better on that since their first printings, so I don't expect to be upset about such things. Word is the pic for the yellow mold made it back in with this printing.
Jack7
First Post
With any activity, gaming included, there comes a point at which the inclusion of additional data becomes more a noticeable hindrance to smooth operation rather than a sublime benefit. Information overload freezes progress, it does not promote it. This becomes especially evident when information is transformed from a knowledge base into an operational method.
So the key to the successful inclusion of more and more data and information into any system for useful advantage is to prevent the tendency of the exercise of transforming additional materials into systems that affect necessary function, rather than enhancing overall fluidity and capability.
In gaming terms this means present as much information as you like, but transform as little as possible into systemic rules and statistics.
And this is I suspect, as others have pointed out, the reason for the growing popularity of the retro clones to many players.
Simplicity tends to promote functionality and efficiency, especially where matters of the mind tend to be concerned. Complexity tends to promote mental exhaustion, taxation, and eventually boredom and disinterest.
There is marked difference between a thing being theoretically interesting (and many things that are enormously complex are just that, theoretically fascinating) and a thing being pragmatically functional. Or put another way, it is extremely easy to create complexity, and very difficult to consistently master it.
Any edition of D&D can present any amount of information it desires, and it will not adversely effect at all how the game plays or functions, as long as you don't make all information presented vital or necessary to play. Once all, or even most of the information presented in any activity becomes necessary or vital in order to perform effectively (or is presented as being seemingly so) then a meandering and even bewildering complexity (which is as likely to be in error as to be truly useful) will follow which at worst will mislead one from the original intent, or at best interject a sluggish complexity that only stubbornness will successfully overcome.
You cannot make everything vital, or nothing is. And if everything is so complex that it must be structured in narrow detail and reduced to sophisticated formulae to even be understood , then it is probably too complex to be immediately and evidently useful.
In other words there is no reason to role play anything if the role is merely the execution of a minutely prescribed program. That's what machines do, not minds.
So the key to the successful inclusion of more and more data and information into any system for useful advantage is to prevent the tendency of the exercise of transforming additional materials into systems that affect necessary function, rather than enhancing overall fluidity and capability.
In gaming terms this means present as much information as you like, but transform as little as possible into systemic rules and statistics.
And this is I suspect, as others have pointed out, the reason for the growing popularity of the retro clones to many players.
Simplicity tends to promote functionality and efficiency, especially where matters of the mind tend to be concerned. Complexity tends to promote mental exhaustion, taxation, and eventually boredom and disinterest.
There is marked difference between a thing being theoretically interesting (and many things that are enormously complex are just that, theoretically fascinating) and a thing being pragmatically functional. Or put another way, it is extremely easy to create complexity, and very difficult to consistently master it.
Any edition of D&D can present any amount of information it desires, and it will not adversely effect at all how the game plays or functions, as long as you don't make all information presented vital or necessary to play. Once all, or even most of the information presented in any activity becomes necessary or vital in order to perform effectively (or is presented as being seemingly so) then a meandering and even bewildering complexity (which is as likely to be in error as to be truly useful) will follow which at worst will mislead one from the original intent, or at best interject a sluggish complexity that only stubbornness will successfully overcome.
You cannot make everything vital, or nothing is. And if everything is so complex that it must be structured in narrow detail and reduced to sophisticated formulae to even be understood , then it is probably too complex to be immediately and evidently useful.
In other words there is no reason to role play anything if the role is merely the execution of a minutely prescribed program. That's what machines do, not minds.
A generation of D&Ders have become parents, with the pressures on their resources that entails -- and with a new generation of prospective players at hand.
The retro-games demand far less investment of money and time in rule books. Requirements of time and energy for preparation and play are also relatively light.
The Theurgist (spells: Hold Portal, Shield, Magic Missile x2, Detect Invisible, Web) is served by an Ogre (250 g.p. in purse) and two charmed Warriors (mail, shield, sword). His dagger is poisoned (good for two hits), and he has a potion of invisibility, scrolls of flight and protection from normal missiles. In his loincloth is a little jade pendant (160 g.p. value) that twice per day can serve as a "knock" spell; the command word is part of the decorative pattern, in Classical Autumn Court Zwarish. In a compartment concealed behind the book case are a sack of 300 s.p.; a locked box holding 500 g.p. and a silk kerchief wrapping four red garnets worth 100 g.p. each; and a pouch of sand. The box is enchanted (at 12th level) to shriek, "Thief! Thief!" whenever the pouch of sand is not within 30'. The key is on the person of the Theurgist, who is usually in the curtained alcove with the secret door that is opened for a round by rotating the central torch sconce on the east wall. His spell books are hidden beneath the floor, in a wizard-locked (4th level) recess.
The ease and speed with which one can create and play out such an encounter is to some a very appealing feature.
The retro-games demand far less investment of money and time in rule books. Requirements of time and energy for preparation and play are also relatively light.
The Theurgist (spells: Hold Portal, Shield, Magic Missile x2, Detect Invisible, Web) is served by an Ogre (250 g.p. in purse) and two charmed Warriors (mail, shield, sword). His dagger is poisoned (good for two hits), and he has a potion of invisibility, scrolls of flight and protection from normal missiles. In his loincloth is a little jade pendant (160 g.p. value) that twice per day can serve as a "knock" spell; the command word is part of the decorative pattern, in Classical Autumn Court Zwarish. In a compartment concealed behind the book case are a sack of 300 s.p.; a locked box holding 500 g.p. and a silk kerchief wrapping four red garnets worth 100 g.p. each; and a pouch of sand. The box is enchanted (at 12th level) to shriek, "Thief! Thief!" whenever the pouch of sand is not within 30'. The key is on the person of the Theurgist, who is usually in the curtained alcove with the secret door that is opened for a round by rotating the central torch sconce on the east wall. His spell books are hidden beneath the floor, in a wizard-locked (4th level) recess.
The ease and speed with which one can create and play out such an encounter is to some a very appealing feature.
A few more non-D&D clones:
DoubleZero is a clone of Victory Games' James Bond 007 RPG. The SRD was released in 2007, but doesn't seem to be accessible anymore. Mostly public domain.
4c is a clone of the original (aka classic) Marvel Super Heroes RPG (the so-called FASERIP system). It was paid for using the "random" model, and then released into the public domain (minus art etc).
ZeFRS (Zeb's Fantasy Roleplaying System) is a clone of the system underlying TSR's old Conan game (using a universal table), apparently with the blessing of the original author.
GORE (Generic Old-School Roleplaying Engine) recreates the BRP (Basic Roleplaying) engine based on Mongoose's RuneQuest SRD. Since there are official versions in print, it seems to have slipped mostly off the radar.
There's also Wayfarers, AD&D 3, Microlite74, and many other kindred spirits that don't quite qualify as clones.
DoubleZero is a clone of Victory Games' James Bond 007 RPG. The SRD was released in 2007, but doesn't seem to be accessible anymore. Mostly public domain.
4c is a clone of the original (aka classic) Marvel Super Heroes RPG (the so-called FASERIP system). It was paid for using the "random" model, and then released into the public domain (minus art etc).
ZeFRS (Zeb's Fantasy Roleplaying System) is a clone of the system underlying TSR's old Conan game (using a universal table), apparently with the blessing of the original author.
GORE (Generic Old-School Roleplaying Engine) recreates the BRP (Basic Roleplaying) engine based on Mongoose's RuneQuest SRD. Since there are official versions in print, it seems to have slipped mostly off the radar.
There's also Wayfarers, AD&D 3, Microlite74, and many other kindred spirits that don't quite qualify as clones.
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