Revised monk

[Sylrae]

if you want to see what they look like in action, download avatar: the last airbender book 3 episode 10-11. it shows all of the 4. Aang, the bald kid with the arrow - Bagua. Kitara, the chick in blue with hair loopies - Tai Chi. Toph (blind chick) - Hun Gar. the enemies, Princess azula in particular, are northern shao lin style. If you find an episode with Ty Lee (Li) fighting, then she would be your Chin Na fighter. she's a little more acrobatic though. there are other character examples, but these are main characters who are examples.

 

[Kerrick]

Wow.... you've been busy.

I know these aren't exactly what you were imagining, but they're all based on actual martial arts styles. Earth/Mountains would be based on Hun Gar (you could even call it Hun Gar). Fire/Sun would be based on Northern Shaolin KungFu. Water/Sea based on Tai Chi. and Air/Wind would be based on Bagua.

Those are pretty much dead-on - Mountain style is a heavy hitter who can soak up damage (a power style); Ocean is all about flowing movements and using the enemy's strength against him (Tai Chi is a perfect example, combined with aikido/judo); Sun is an aggressive style (I like the suggestion to make it less about bursts of energy); Wind is, of course, based around speed (kung fu). Heavens were kind of an add-on; we (my friend and I) wanted to do Sun and Moon, and that was what I came up with after a little work. I know it's not in keeping with the monkish archetype, but there is precedent in D&D - the Monk of the Long Death, for instance. I think a cult of monk who worship a death god is just too cool to pass up.

What I think I'll do, since I'm drawing a blank on Dawn abilities, is just combine them into one style with two aspects - kind of like the Chin-Na style you mention, with pressure points, joint locks, and such, but the PC can choose how to apply them - if he wants to be evil, he can go around using his scorpion strike to inflict pain and suffering; if he's good, he can use it to disable opponents without inflicting pain (I have to add something for that...). Same with blinding strike and such - any condition he inflicts, he can reverse. If you've ever read the Destroyer novels, it's a lot like Sinanju - they can manipulate nerve clusters and pressure points to inflict incredible pain, paralyze some or all of the body, inflict blindness, etc.

Fire/Sun/Northern Shao Lin presently uses burst of speed and other burst things, but I would keep them consistent. maybe give them the increased movement, but really I'd say their style is more of an "end the fight before they hit me" type of style.

Kind of a "hit 'em the firstest with the mostest" style? You know, nail the opponent with overwhelming force and drop him fast? That's kind of what it's about, really - short-term bursts that deal a lot of damage.

You say "aggressive and powerful", but wouldn't that step on the Mountain Style a bit? Is the aggressiveness at the cost of defense?

Don't like shadowstrike, but I hate all things that cause permanent blindness in D&D they just make me angry because if im blinded I'm dead 2 rounds later.

Yeah, I thought that was a bit much myself - I can change it to temporary... maybe 1 round/level or something. I was leaning toward making the Twilight style about striking pressure points, too - disabling the opponent, inflicting crippling blows and such, without necessarily killing him.

but I would line them up with actual schools of martial arts. I think it would just be awesome. and I don't think I'd give them supernatural energy channeling abilities. I mean it fits the asian mysticism associated with martial arts pretty well, but not really the practical aspect of it, you know?

Yeah... the elemental channeling thing just kind of popped up on its own, and I thought it was kinda cool, so I kept it, despite the fact that it is a bit wuxia (which I'm trying my best to avoid). I do want to have SOME mystical ability, though... I think a Master or Grandmaster-level monk should be able to do things that normal humans can't, like the burst of wind thing. I could ditch the Aspect of xxx cause it is a bit over the top, but then I'd need a new Grandmaster ability.

for quivering palm, I would change it do doing Con Damage. then a tough character will last longer. Also, some way to cure it should exist. maybe a potion, or a ritual, or some form of accupuncture/accupressure.

Con damage would work, too... maybe drop the target's Con by half? I like the idea of being able to negate it - a Heal check could work, or a Dawn monk could do it.

Air/Wind/Bagua I would make be the one about evasion. I don't just mean damage reduction, I mean total avoidance. Maybe an ability to which lets you cancel out attacks of opportunity before the opponent takes them, or an ability that lets you roll to dodge blows so the target hits nothing but air.

That could work.. I'll see what I can do.

I'm not sure they should all get the same AC bonus by stat.I'd vary it up, so the Con based ones get less AC, but get DR, and more powerful attacks, The Cha ones would get less AC, but be compensated with damage, the sea ones would get the second most AC, at standard, and the wind ones would get EXTRA AC, or standard AC with complete damage avoidance rolls/abilities. for Chin Na make it standard since they will be making lots of paralysis attacks.

Now this I like - it makes the styles different, which is what I want. Don't forget, too, that you choose only ONE compass point - it's a style focus. I can change North and South to give a variable bonus based on the style, which would be noted in each style. I'd like to keep it so that there isn't a combination of style and focus that's significantly better than any other, though - I mean, a Wind Style monk who focuses on dealing damage, should be just as viable as the same monk with a defensive focus.

also, I don't think uses per day fits a monk. its a fighting class, and I think the abilities shouldn't have much in the way of daily limits. maybe a limit based on CON or a recharge time if absolutely necessary.

Hmm... I read somewhere, in one of the many discussions about 4E encounter powers, someone used the analogy of a martial artist - you wouldn't use all your flashy moves over and over; you'd try it once or twice, then fall back on tried and true methods that are sure to work. I played judo in college, and I can agree with this - the big, flashy moves generally don't get used unless an opportunity presents itself. Most matches are won with a handful of throws, which are among the more basic ones, because they're the easiest to perform and have the widest utility.

so the short version is. maybe you should use real styles as a basis? it seemed almost like thats what you were doing anyways.

I was just kinda coming up with things off the top of my head, actually. I'll check out Avatar, though.

In the meantime, I'll go over the monk, tweak some things, and update the first post later. Thanks for all the input.

 

[Sylrae]

Those are pretty much dead-on - Mountain style is a heavy hitter who can soak up damage (a power style); Ocean is all about flowing movements and using the enemy's strength against him (Tai Chi is a perfect example, combined with aikido/judo); Sun is an aggressive style (I like the suggestion to make it less about bursts of energy); Wind is, of course, based around speed (kung fu). Heavens were kind of an add-on; we (my friend and I) wanted to do Sun and Moon, and that was what I came up with after a little work. I know it's not in keeping with the monkish archetype, but there is precedent in D&D - the Monk of the Long Death, for instance. I think a cult of monk who worship a death god is just too cool to pass up.

Also, Kung Fu isn't one school of martial arts, its alot of schools. And Kung Fu covers other things besides martial arts, whereas Wushu is just martial arts. but with the western definition where Kung Fu refers to martial arts, ALL of the styles I listed are Kung Fu. Hun Gar, Northern Shao Lin, Tai Chi, Bagua, and Chin-Na are all Kung Fu. when most people think of Kung Fu theyre thinking of Northern Shao Lin Kung Fu.

What I think I'll do, since I'm drawing a blank on Dawn abilities, is just combine them into one style with two aspects - kind of like the Chin-Na style you mention, with pressure points, joint locks, and such, but the PC can choose how to apply them - if he wants to be evil, he can go around using his scorpion strike to inflict pain and suffering; if he's good, he can use it to disable opponents without inflicting pain (I have to add something for that...). Same with blinding strike and such - any condition he inflicts, he can reverse. If you've ever read the Destroyer novels, it's a lot like Sinanju - they can manipulate nerve clusters and pressure points to inflict incredible pain, paralyze some or all of the body, inflict blindness, etc.
---------
Yeah, I thought that was a bit much myself - I can change it to temporary... maybe 1 round/level or something. I was leaning toward making the Twilight style about striking pressure points, too - disabling the opponent, inflicting crippling blows and such, without necessarily killing him.
----------
Yeah... the elemental channeling thing just kind of popped up on its own, and I thought it was kinda cool, so I kept it, despite the fact that it is a bit wuxia (which I'm trying my best to avoid). I do want to have SOME mystical ability, though... I think a Master or Grandmaster-level monk should be able to do things that normal humans can't, like the burst of wind thing. I could ditch the Aspect of xxx cause it is a bit over the top, but then I'd need a new Grandmaster ability.
----------
Con damage would work, too... maybe drop the target's Con by half? I like the idea of being able to negate it - a Heal check could work, or a Dawn monk could do it.

I like the pressure point and exploiting weakness/reversing it ideas. I wouldnt go fractional con minuses, I'd make it flat numbers, which gradually increase (at the whim of the martial artist the player would have to make saves to stop it from further increasing). I'd drop the aspect Idea. think of it like this - they should be able to step outside the bounds of human limitation, but it shouldn't be supernatural. hence the running on water, etc, but not the turning into supernatural creatures.

Fire/Sun/Northern Shao Lin presently uses burst of speed and other burst things, but I would keep them consistent. maybe give them the increased movement, but really I'd say their style is more of an "end the fight before they hit me" type of style.

Kind of a "hit 'em the firstest with the mostest" style? You know, nail the opponent with overwhelming force and drop him fast? That's kind of what it's about, really - short-term bursts that deal a lot of damage.

You say "aggressive and powerful", but wouldn't that step on the Mountain Style a bit? Is the aggressiveness at the cost of defense?

Northern Shaolin is actually what it sounds like you were originally thinking of for wind. its a fast and hard style, without the emphasis on evasion that Bagua has (which is why it suits wind better. how do you hit the wind . the difference being that I think Bagua would work better for wind, and be all awesome dodgeyness. Bagua masters can maneuver themselves behind their opponent and make it so their opponent never gets the chance to see them to hit them. more air-ey. and less about attacking. and it's not so much that the Northern shao lin attack *at the cost of defense* as it is *without the extra defense*. it would be the 2nd fastest, and would do the most damage likely, but would have (out of the 4) the worst defense(not an actual penalty, just the smallest bonuses, or somethign like that) and when I said consistent, I meant consistent in attack style, as in getting rid of the burst thing O.O. I personally don't like the burst Idea, and even though I found an actual martial art that uses bursts of power in attacks, I would avoid it in favor of something a bit more constant.

That could work.. I'll see what I can do.

I think these revised styles (designed around real styles at least for theme) would be awesome for a monk. way better than the original, and you'd have enough variation to have a bunch of different monks who are very dissimilar but are all Definitely martial artists (without really supernatural abilities)

Now this I like - it makes the styles different, which is what I want. Don't forget, too, that you choose only ONE compass point - it's a style focus. I can change North and South to give a variable bonus based on the style, which would be noted in each style. I'd like to keep it so that there isn't a combination of style and focus that's significantly better than any other, though - I mean, a Wind Style monk who focuses on dealing damage, should be just as viable as the same monk with a defensive focus.

I forgot about the compass points. I think they aren't really necessary, as martial arts styles have their own focuses, most people dont specialize in obscure things in their own schools, they would just pick a different school. I would just work the compass points into the classes as you have them now. Every monk class needs the WIS based defense. they don't wear armor. that being said, I think having them get a bonus to armor or a small penalty applied to that armor bonus based on style would rock.

Hmm... I read somewhere, in one of the many discussions about 4E encounter powers, someone used the analogy of a martial artist - you wouldn't use all your flashy moves over and over; you'd try it once or twice, then fall back on tried and true methods that are sure to work. I played judo in college, and I can agree with this - the big, flashy moves generally don't get used unless an opportunity presents itself. Most matches are won with a handful of throws, which are among the more basic ones, because they're the easiest to perform and have the widest utility.

I'm not saying they should all be at will powers like the 4e things, I'm just saying that they shouldnt be per day. if you're going to make them per day, the limit should be like 10 or something. that's why I'd limit them some other way. Maybe based on time and CON scores or something.

I was just kinda coming up with things off the top of my head, actually. I'll check out Avatar, though.

In the meantime, I'll go over the monk, tweak some things, and update the first post later. Thanks for all the input.

NP. this is a sweet class in progress, and when its done will be a considerable improvement over the old monk.

also, the stat based bonuses to attack or armor need to be limited by level somehow. maybe like *to no more than your BAB+1* or *to no more than your Monk level +1* or something. a level 1 monk should be able to get a +2 but not higher. etc.

 

[Kerrick]

Also, Kung Fu isn't one school of martial arts, its alot of schools. And Kung Fu covers other things besides martial arts, whereas Wushu is just martial arts.

Oh, I know kung fu is a specific martial art - I've seen enough Jackie Chan movies, and the old 80's kung-fu flicks.

I wouldnt go fractional con minuses, I'd make it flat numbers, which gradually increase (at the whim of the martial artist the player would have to make saves to stop it from further increasing).

Flat numbers sounds good. Maybe make it so that it deals 2 points right off, and the target loses another 2 points per hour/day until he dies or it's reversed - that follows the spirit of the original quivering palm, but makes it more applicable to this style.

I'd drop the aspect Idea. think of it like this - they should be able to step outside the bounds of human limitation, but it shouldn't be supernatural.

Yeah... I want to keep the Aspect of Wind, though - it's just too cool, and it really fits the style. I'll maybe drop the concealment part though.

and it's not so much that the Northern shao lin attack *at the cost of defense* as it is *without the extra defense*. it would be the 2nd fastest, and would do the most damage likely, but would have (out of the 4) the worst defense(not an actual penalty, just the smallest bonuses, or somethign like that)

Ah. Are you suggesting dropping the compass points? I want to keep those - they're good for adding a little boost to the style's strong point, or shoring up a weakness.

I personally don't like the burst Idea, and even though I found an actual martial art that uses bursts of power in attacks, I would avoid it in favor of something a bit more constant.

Pure destructive power makes more sense, so I dropped the burst thing.

I think they aren't really necessary, as martial arts styles have their own focuses, most people dont specialize in obscure things in their own schools, they would just pick a different school. I would just work the compass points into the classes as you have them now. Every monk class needs the WIS based defense. they don't wear armor.

Makes sense. All monks get an AC bonus - it's awareness of self, which was supposed to be listed at 1st level. The description is in there, though; they gain a +3 dodge bonus, +1/3 levels. Mountain Style would swap half their AC bonus for DR /-; Sun Style would suffer a -2 penalty (as they're more focused on offense); Sea and Heavens Styles remain unchanged; and Wind Style gains a +2 bonus.

I'm not saying they should all be at will powers like the 4e things, I'm just saying that they shouldnt be per day. if you're going to make them per day, the limit should be like 10 or something.

3 + stat bonus is pretty hefty. That's what I'm moving most of the abilities toward, for consistency's sake.

also, the stat based bonuses to attack or armor need to be limited by level somehow. maybe like *to no more than your BAB+1* or *to no more than your Monk level +1* or something. a level 1 monk should be able to get a +2 but not higher. etc.

I'm fixing those - they'll be +1/rank.


I edited the first post to take (most of) your suggestions into account, along with some other ideas I had. There are still a few things to fix - this isn't close to the final version yet. I think what I'll do is put the elemental channeling stuff as a monk/sorcerer PrC - you can further tap into the power of your style, then you can get the supernatural abilities and aspects and such. I altered the sorcerer class (there might still be a thread on it here somewhere) to give them a more innate grasp of magic - they can tap directly into the source, etc.

I also found Avatar online, and I watched the first season on nick.com. Despite being written for kids, that show is awesome - it's got great writing, and the fighting styles are very evocative.

 

[Sylrae]

Flat numbers sounds good. Maybe make it so that it deals 2 points right off, and the target loses another 2 points per hour/day until he dies or it's reversed - that follows the spirit of the original quivering palm, but makes it more applicable to this style.

Yeah, make it like that, but mkae the 2 points per day be able to not happen for a given hour or more based on hte whim on the one who inflicted it. so if they want to, they could draw it out over days.

Yeah... I want to keep the Aspect of Wind, though - it's just too cool, and it really fits the style. I'll maybe drop the concealment part though.

I love aspect of the wind. That's what I meant. more abilities like that, less abilities where you shoot raw energy or turn into a big scary monster.

Ah. Are you suggesting dropping the compass points? I want to keep those - they're good for adding a little boost to the style's strong point, or shoring up a weakness.

Compass points are a nifty idea, but they need to have different effects. Because as I said, ALL monks need an AC boost. you shouldnt make them have to pick between it and an attack. maybe allow it to give an additional AC boost of like up to +4 or something, but don't make the AC boost come solely from compass points. They should have less drastic effects. +4 should be the biggest bonus you can get from north or south, and I would tie it into the monk classification, like ititiate, etc.

Pure destructive power makes more sense, so I dropped the burst thing.

Awesome.

Makes sense. All monks get an AC bonus - it's awareness of self, which was supposed to be listed at 1st level. The description is in there, though; they gain a +3 dodge bonus, +1/3 levels. Mountain Style would swap half their AC bonus for DR /-; Sun Style would suffer a -2 penalty (as they're more focused on offense); Sea and Heavens Styles remain unchanged; and Wind Style gains a +2 bonus.

I'd limit it by stat score, so if the stat used is Wisdom, then it could be no higher than your wisdom bonus. If mountain style drops half for DR, they should get half of their AC as DR, and thats pretty big. I dont know it should be that big. instead of giving penalties to Sun and a bonus to wind, I would make tables for the gain of AC, and have the Wind one gradually gain more, and hte Sun one gradually gain less. instead of giving penalties, change the fraction of the level used. it's fine for Mountain to give half AC and half DR is you want, but for Sun you should change the fraction to like 1/4, and for wind, maybe 1/2. your +2 amd -2 should be applied to the maximum number they can have, or you should base it on a different stat depending on the school.

3 + stat bonus is pretty hefty. That's what I'm moving most of the abilities toward, for consistency's sake.

Clarify.

I'm fixing those - they'll be +1/rank.

is this in regard to compass points? if so, that sounds more reasonable.

I also found Avatar online, and I watched the first season on nick.com. Despite being written for kids, that show is awesome - it's got great writing, and the fighting styles are very evocative.

Very true. as far as animated series go, I'd say its one of the best. There are a bunch of people here at the university who all watch it, and we've all been getting very angry at how they keep delaying the release of episodes, as well as annoyed at the fact that this is going to be the last season.

 

[Dagredhel]

Ki Frenzy: +2 to strength and +2 to
Dexterity. Speed increases by 10 feet, plus flurry of blows (making one extra attack per round while suffering a -2
penalty on every attack)

It would also be neat if each elemental school had a different combat ability reflecting differing fighting styles. A single, extra-powerful attack would be good for Mountain (the double damage variant from PHBII.) The normal flurry of blows for Sun, maybe? Sea could focus on grappling instead, and Heavens on throws?

Perhaps the Heavens school could focus more on ranged attacks, sort of like zen archery?

Just brainstorming...

 

[Kerrick]

Compass points are a nifty idea, but they need to have different effects.

I just came up with an idea... instead of making the compass points permanent foci, make them kind of like the "hard" and "soft" styles, and the monk can switch between them from round to round. That is, a monk can fight with North focus (attack bonus) one round, then switch to Southern (defense) if he's getting beaten. Western style would have to be changed, of course.. I'm thinking +2 to ability DCs. That way monks aren't hamstrung by their choices, and it more closely follows normal martial arts fighting styles.

Because as I said, ALL monks need an AC boost. you shouldnt make them have to pick between it and an attack. maybe allow it to give an additional AC boost of like up to +4 or something, but don't make the AC boost come solely from compass points. They should have less drastic effects. +4 should be the biggest bonus you can get from north or south, and I would tie it into the monk classification, like ititiate, etc.

They all DO get an AC boost - like I said, the Awareness of Self ability grants them the bonus. The compass points (which were changed to be rank-dependent bonuses) are add-ons.

I'd limit it by stat score, so if the stat used is Wisdom, then it could be no higher than your wisdom bonus.

Why? It's actually more balanced this way - you can't boost your Wisdom (or Con, or whatever) to get a ridiculously high AC bonus (which is what you'd be able to do even if it were limited to max stat bonus). A bonus that scales with level will enable the monk to keep up with the rest of the party, while keeping the bonus under control.

If mountain style drops half for DR, they should get half of their AC as DR, and thats pretty big.

He gets half his AC bonus as DR, not half his AC. I'm not that crazy. Although I will clarify that it's the dodge bonus only, not the insight bonus granted by the Southern focus.

instead of giving penalties to Sun and a bonus to wind, I would make tables for the gain of AC, and have the Wind one gradually gain more, and hte Sun one gradually gain less.

You can just make a note under each style. If you increase/decrease the AC rate, though, there's no need to apply the +/- 2 - that'll screw over the Sun Style and give the Wind Style an unneeded boost.

3 + stat bonus is pretty hefty. That's what I'm moving most of the abilities toward, for consistency's sake.

Clarify.

You're suggesting giving them something like 10 uses/day for each ability, but 3 + stat bonus uses/day is still pretty hefty, especially at higher levels - they're going to have at least +4. I'm moving most of the abilities toward 3 + stat bonus uses per day for consistency's sake, and leaving some of the more powerful/abusable ones at 3/day or less.

Very true. as far as animated series go, I'd say its one of the best. There are a bunch of people here at the university who all watch it, and we've all been getting very angry at how they keep delaying the release of episodes, as well as annoyed at the fact that this is going to be the last season.

I heard they're going to do one more season - Aang will deal with the Fire Lord this season, and then they'll do Season 4. Given that it takes $1 million and 9-10 months to make each episode, it's no surprise they're being delayed.

Ki Frenzy: +2 to strength and +2 to Dexterity. Speed increases by 10 feet, plus flurry of blows (making one extra attack per round while suffering a -2 penalty on every attack)

I like that - much more monk-like than the rage. Thanks!

It would also be neat if each elemental school had a different combat ability reflecting differing fighting styles. A single, extra-powerful attack would be good for Mountain (the double damage variant from PHBII.) The normal flurry of blows for Sun, maybe? Sea could focus on grappling instead, and Heavens on throws?

That's pretty much what I want to do - make the styles unique and evocative of the elemental types. Mountain Style has the single attack - it's part of Rooted to the Earth. I like Sea being based on Tai Chi, which isn't grappling (sorry). I'm really not sure what to do with Heavens; I might just drop it.

 

[GeorgeFields]

Great thread. I'm looking forward to seeing the finished layout.

 

[Sylrae]

AC Bonuses.

I came up with progression tables based on fractions. Initially I used the nice fractions I listed above, but I changed the fractions used so that they would amount to the same final values as the modifiers you came up with. At max level its the same effect, but this should make things a little more even in the low levels.

 

[Kerrick]

The Hun Gar DR value looks really weird - subtracting Hun Gar from tai Chi doesn't result in a clean progression. I'd just use Tai Chi's progression (or make a new one) and divide by 2.