[revolution] Exactly WHY is d20 so great, comparing?

[Psion]

3.) Storytelling?? In my personal experience, most PLAYERS couldn't give a spit about story, that's just the excuse to get to the next fight.

And I am here to tell ya, my experience differs. Vastly. IME, most of my players (current and historical) were much more engaged in the game if I have a storyline, plot development, and character development. Things could get dull pretty quick if you just wandered from fight to fight.

 

[Xeriar]

Well, first of all, in all role-playing games, it's very easy to simply ignore rules you don't like. At it's very simplest, I think d20 is an improved version of Chaosium's BRP.

It's very hard to ignore the skill system, or the fact that it's a d20, without making it not d20 anymore.

People who say the system doesn't matter - why play with rules at all then? It's certainly possible to go entirely free-form. Why advocate d20 instead of a myriad of vastly simpler systems out there?

 

[Xeriar]

3.) Storytelling?? In my personal experience, most PLAYERS couldn't give a spit about story, that's just the excuse to get to the next fight.

d20 certainly encourages hack & slash (being the only default way to gain experience) - but I find that most people really are more interested in the story.

Of course, I may also just be avoiding an entire subclass of players.

 

[Psion]

It's very hard to ignore the skill system, or the fact that it's a d20, without making it not d20 anymore.

It's not hard to ajudicate modifiers by ear (such as using roleplay to set the difficulty of a roll) instead of consulting the book. And it's pretty hard to call that not d20 anymore, since it's in the book.

People who say the system doesn't matter - why play with rules at all then? It's certainly possible to go entirely free-form. Why advocate d20 instead of a myriad of vastly simpler systems out there?

This is a false dichotomy. Most middle to heavy systems are really not as much different from one another as they are from no system at all.

 

[Voneth]

And I am here to tell ya, my experience differs. Vastly. IME, most of my players (current and historical) were much more engaged in the game if I have a storyline, plot development, and character development. Things could get dull pretty quick if you just wandered from fight to fight.

d20 certainly encourages hack & slash (being the only default way to gain experience) - but I find that most people really are more interested in the story.

Of course, I may also just be avoiding an entire subclass of players.

And I should tell you that two are blessed. To give a better idea, of my experiences...

In college, when we played mostly Mage, it was all about deep questions and storytelling. But when I left for the "real world" it was a completely different expereince.

First job was in the middle of nowhere, 4 hours to find a city that had a skyline and nothing inbetween. To quote the store owner in my town, "My PC has no family or friends, they all died. I only think about the money." ... "Roleplaying is that thing you do like in Indiana Jones, where if you don't figure out the tiles on the floor, you fall through." Direct quotes, my man. And other direct quote from a fellow player of that time after he left town to go back to college. "Man, people really do play the game like you ran it, Von!! It's cool this way!! I wanted to try it before, but I was afraid 'the' group would kick me out. The store owner already didn't like you."

My next job, same thing. Hardly any gamers and they all wanted D&D. Then I moved to a bigger town and d20 hit the shelves. But I am living in a studio (not a flat) so my bedroom and living room are the same area. I ran my games at the game store.

Best quote from that experince: "I bought the book, I don't have to read it."

So at the game store, I went from "Hide all my dice rolls and lets tell a story" to "Here's the die rolls, tough luck, next fight." So as of this weekend, I wrapped up a decent hack n'slash campaign (nope, didn't use d20). People said it was great and then I annouced that I am quiting GMing for while. Among other things, I am waiting for my new job to save up enough cash to get a real apartment and then I'll have invite only games ... maybe.

I still play and I am currently in two games ... where both GM's have just pulled out old D&D modules (Slaver lords being one) and converted them so that we can now go trudging through more long halls and kill spit.

yeah storytelling

 

[Ranger REG]

Storyteller system books all begin by telling you the Theme and the Mood. There aren't "scenarios" or "adventures"--rather there are Stories made up of Scenes, and they are expected to have a strong Beginning, a Middle, and an End (in literary terms).

Each Storyteller book is a complete game in and of itself. In a way, it is both ruleset and campaign setting. To compare that with Dungeons & Dragons which is simply a ruleset, then any one Storyteller book have the advantage, because of its specific parameters. It is also relatable because it is adapted from our real-world history (call it an "Alternate Earth" campaign setting).

For us, WE want to create our own fantasy setting with our own specific parameters, so we see D&D as tools. Granted, Wizards have created a few published campaign setting -- one of which is immersed in the D&D product line -- but there are those who prefer our own homebrewed version. It is the GM to set up the Theme and Mood of his or her game. It is also he that must decide how a story-based adventure may or may not have an impact with the rest of the fantasy world.

You can talk the talk about d20 being story-friendly, and how it supports stories, and I agree completely. But I counter that the Storyteller rules emphasize story by making it the single most important element of any game session, and having a ruleset that uses Literary Terms to describe its component parts.

True, but what if I want to create a different type of setting? Instead of Vampire vs. Werewolf, they are in an alliance? What if I don't want the World of Darkness to end, or rather not follow the parameters for the World of Darkness setting? What if prefer just two Vampire clans, of which they can mix-n-match special abilities (Tremere's Blood Magic + Brujah's Celerity + Nosferatur's Obfuscate)?

Sorry for not being clear before, but that's what I mean. d20 rules have six kinds of dice and unique mechanics for umpteen-hundred spells, feats, prestige classes, etc. etc. Storyteller rules use one kind of dice, one kind of roll, and although there are umpteen-hundred gifts, clans, tribes, powers, etc. (and I'd never accuse Mage of having a "simple" ruleset), the books most definitely favor background over mechanics.

From what I have seen, backgrounds in Storyteller are simply special abilities that are inherent or taught at an early stage. You can do that in d20. I have seen Forgotten Realms and Rokugan that uses background/ancestor feats, or use monster classes and decide which skills and feats a monster should have before he begins his 1st character level in a class.

To me, each Storyteller book focuses on one race/species: Vampire, Werewolf, Wraith, etc. And from each species they have sub-species or clan with their own cultures. d20 have that in the form of the multitude of race splatbooks, where you can emphasize the worldly background of a high elf to the ascetics of the grey elf, or the savagery of the wild elf.

Granted, each Storyteller books is defined because it has specific parameters, but d20 offers options.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Some people seem to want to have a "d20 is better/no it's not" discussion. (That doesn't interest me very much; I like both systems quite a bit).
[...]
And both systems are great in their own way.

Read that quote one more time. There ya go. Okay. Better now?

Your post just shows why many d20 aficionados just don't "get" Storyteller games (although you may, in fact, "get" them just fine REG). The system is the characters, set against the background, telling the story. The story is the background, behind the characters, which are the system. They're all connected.

While you're ranting about species and bloodlines and "Why can't I make a Brujah-Nosferatu-Garou-True Mage who's a Mummy on weekends?", I'm just saying that story, and the literary tricks and window dressing that support it, are hardwired into the Storyteller system.

They are not hardwired into d20...although d20 allows you to tell a story, if you're Ranger REG or Joshua Dyal and you'd like to do that. Or, if you're Voneth and you want a straight-up dice-rolling slugfest where the numbers rule, d20 supports that too.

The only other thing I'm saying is that the original poster (remember when this thread had a topic?) might want to try out a Storyteller game as tonic for his d20-spawned woes.

Once again, I like them both. They offer different thrills. One does nicely whenever the other is grating, for whatever reason.

 

[WayneLigon]

Most of my reasons for liking it are laid out above.

1. d20 has some rules-weight, yes, but they are consistant rules. The terminology problem just isn't going to go away for you, but that's hardly the fault of the RPG itself. It's the fault of our language.

There are certainly RPG's that make d20.D&D's rule-weight almost negligable. Half of the Player's Handbook deals with spell descriptions, so only half of the book can really be considered 'rules'.

The consistancy of things is what I think has really been a great boost to the system and D&D as a whole. For decades, we've all complained about how weird an illogical things were. Now that's gone.

 

[Dedthom]

I have read a few of the previous post but, others are longer than I want to read this early in the morning . So if I cover something already stated please for give me.
years ago some role playing games used to start out by saying that the rules are just a skeleton on which to hang you game, a framework if you will. D20, at its core, is a very simple system, role d20, add bonus, exceed target number, repeat.How you come by the bonus and target number is actually an easy process. All other parts of the system are changable, dont think the wisdom stat will fit in your campain, drop or change it. Dont like classes(fighter, bard, etc) drop it, or dont even use classes at all. Dont like levels, drop them. Of course you have to figure a way to replace these things you have changed, but D20 is so flexible you can do it with just a little work. Also, a number of the OGL products present different ways of handling rules mechanic, so you can use them to help you out.
DND3E has got tons of rules, and you may never use most of them, but it is better that they are there so when you do need them you have them.

 

[Psion]

Your post just shows why many d20 aficionados just don't "get" Storyteller games...

"Why can't I make a Brujah-Nosferatu-Garou-True Mage who's a Mummy on weekends?"

You know, Tom, you remind me of an old chap by the handle of Kaptain Kantrip. You may have a point to make, but you try to make it with loaded statements that insult the reader, and your point gets lost in the emotive trample.

Your statements, the essence of which is quoted above, shows to me nothing about the game, but rather betray your (IME wildly innacurate) stereotype about the players and the way the game is played.