Rogue Sneak Attack in surprise round vs. Alertness

[Crosswind]

Alertness says that you don't grant combat advantage to enemies during the surprise round.

Rogues have an ability that says that if an enemy has not acted yet at the start of an encounter, you get combat advantage.

If a rogue surprises somebody with Alertness, and gets a surprise round...does he get combat advantage?

-Cross

 

[phil500]

No, I think the general rule is "cant beats can"

 

[Crosswind]

But specific beats general. The statement "does not grant combat advantage in a surprise round" doesn't specify the reasons that somebody could be granting combat advantage (There are at least two).

"Rogues get combat advantage when they act before another person at the start of an encounter" is specific.

Agree that if Alertness read "Does not grant combat advantage due to the 'surprised' condition", rogues would definitely get sneak attack...

-Cross

 

[Valerion Steele]

i too would say that the rogue gets to sneak attack , because he gets combat advantage against anyone who has not acted yet...
but nobody else gains ca against somaone with alertness...
my oppinion...

 

[SableWyvern]

I'd go with the Rogue getting combat advantage. Alertness is clearly designed to eliminate penalties caused by surprise, rather than any and all penalties that just happen to occur while you're surprised.

 

[Shabe]

I suppose its a good job that this will only ever happen if a PC with Alterness meets a monster with the rogue template added (not even sure if the rogue template adds "Rogues get combat advantage when they act before another person at the start of an encounter"), as i don't think monsters get feats.

Well unless the Rogue PCs starts attacking a PC with alterness.

 

[Armadillo]

Alertness specifically cancels combat advantage and anything that depends on combat advantage, such as sneak attack.

 

[rkanodia]

Alertness specifically cancels combat advantage and anything that depends on combat advantage, such as sneak attack.

First Strike isn't based on whether or not the enemy is surprised. It's based on whether or not they have acted in the current encounter.

 

[Darketower]

Alertness says that you don't grant combat advantage to enemies during the surprise round.

Rogues have an ability that says that if an enemy has not acted yet at the start of an encounter, you get combat advantage.

If a rogue surprises somebody with Alertness, and gets a surprise round...does he get combat advantage?

-Cross

Specific beats General.

The Rogue's ability has nothing to do with a Surprise Round. It has to do with Initiative Order. The Rogue gains combat advantage against any enemy that has not acted yet at the start of the encounter. As long as the Rogue moves first, even without "surprise", he gets combat advantage.

Alertness negates combat advantage caused by being caught unaware, i.e. "the surprise round". So during a normal surprise round, no one would have combat advantage against an Alert foe due to the element of surprise.

However, assuming the Rogue has caught the Alert enemy by surprise, he's getting combat advantage from two sources: the surprise round, and from his ability. Alertness only negates one of those sources (the element of surprise). The encounter has begun, and the Rogue is acting before the Alert foe has a chance to. Therefore, the Rogue still gets combat advantage until the Alert enemy acts (which, depending on how they roll initiative, might be for two of the Rogue's turns).

 

[Lord Sessadore]

Yes, the rogue ability says nothing about treating a foe as surprised if the foe hasn't gone yet in the encounter. It says they gain combat advantage against a foe that hasn't acted yet in the encounter.

Alertness doesn't even cancel surprise, it just doesn't grant combat advantage for being surprised.

Also: can you think of any possible way that a rogue would not have surprise (and therefore combat advantage) against an enemy that hasn't acted yet, other than Alertness? If there is no such case, why even include the ability? It would seem to me that First Strike is made to specifically counter such abilities as Alertness.