Ryan Dancey speaks - the Most Successful Year for Fantasy RPGaming ever. However...

[Mark CMG]

How many actually consider these are two completely different activities that cannot be compared to each other.

Any who understand the reality of the situation.

It's an extrapolation; if WOTC's research suggests that DMs suck at game design but (. . .)

IMO, it's not relevant to the matter at hand since all a DM needs, to have more flexibility than CRPGs, is a source of pre-designed adventures.

 

[Odhanan]

It does show that DMs overrate their abilities though; is your view of the typical DM as talented as a potential author, screenwriter or playwright? Yes? I call bollocks.

Indeed bull! We're not talking of authors, screenwriter and playwrights here! I'm not talking of "storytelling" here! We're talking of game-mastering and role-playing!

It's an extrapolation; if WOTC's research suggests that DMs suck at game design but think they're good at it, I'm extending that to their ability to create stories as well.

Again, you're the one talking of "stories". I'm talking of role-playing here. That's the key to have great settings and great interactions between the game world and the PCs: not thinking in terms of "stories" but devices that trigger interaction or not on the part of the PCs according to what they're doing and how they're doing it. That's understanding, IMHO, the base of what is a RPG: a game of social interaction and make believe. Not "story hour".

See, that's where, bottom line, we may agree: it's better to play a social game face to face than just sitting in front of the computer and looking at graphics until the wee-hours of the night.

 

[Hairfoot]

How many on this proportion of players of WoW knowing TRPGs chose to play WoW instead of TRPGs because of the choices and paths for their virtual selves are better than those they'd know from the TRPG campaigns they have played.

And how many wouldn't look twice at a game which requires as much number-crunching and accounting as TTD&D?

Part of the D&D turn-off is that, to "outsiders", it seems accessible only to people with a keen interest in mathematics. It can't compare to the ease of clicking the mouse and seeing your virtual PC run, jump, and fight without once having to stack bonuses or work out a move silently modifier.

As for pretty digital flowers, a much-missed GM of mine was in the habit of picking up cheap photo books of landscapes, castles, ruins, and so on, to aid his descriptions. It worked well.

 

[Odhanan]

Your response amounts to "but I've played some really good games!" Yes, so have I!

But here's the clincher: are they outnumbered by the boring ones and the poor ones?

Yes. Good games in my experience way outnumber boring and poor ones together. If I should look like I'm good public for RPG sessions, so be it.

 

[Odhanan]

And how many wouldn't look twice at a game which requires as much number-crunching and accounting as TTD&D?

Part of the D&D turn-off is that, to "outsiders", it seems accessible only to people with a keen interest in mathematics. It can't compare to the ease of clicking the mouse and seeing your virtual PC run, jump, and fight without once having to stack bonuses or work out a move silently modifier.

Absolutely.

 

[rounser]

I'm not talking of "storytelling" here! We're talking of game-mastering and role-playing!

Splitting hairs much, are we? Call it the plots and scenarios that the players have to interact with, then. The stage must be set with such things, else "modules" or "adventures" would not matter, worldbuilding or improvisation would not matter, in fact the DM would not matter and the players could just game purely by roleplaying amongst themselves (which they do a bit, but if it was the entirety of the game session it would get yawnful).

I think you're resorting to semantics, there - and the material to build the "interactive story" of an MMORPG or CRPG is equivalent to that of a P&P RPG in terms of interactivity.

See, that's where, bottom line, we may agree: it's better to play a social game face to face than just sitting in front of the computer and looking at graphics until the wee-hours of the night.

Hmmm. If WoW offers a purer swords & sorcery gaming experience than P&P D&D (e.g. no distraction by small talk or silliness), and chatting with friends over some beers, a dinner party or a DVD offers a purer social experience than P&P D&D (no distraction by gaming), then it may be just as legit.

 

[rounser]

Yes. Good games in my experience way outnumber boring and poor ones together. If I should look like I'm good public for RPG sessions, so be it.

Even subtracting the social component? I guess that's a given, based on the stance you've taken.

I've stuck around with bad games in some cases purely because I like the people involved and their company.

 

[WayneLigon]

There's a reason why most campaigns are railroads from one adventure to the next, and this is probably one of the main reasons.

Point me to even one computer game that is not a total railroad.

I'm starting to think the entire thing is just apples and oranges. I've never seen much crossover between beyond-casual computer gamers and tabletop gamers. I think they want different things from a game, and neither is going to be totally happy with the other side of the fence.

 

[Odhanan]

I think you're resorting to semantics, there

See: that's precisely why we cannot agree. I absolutely believe this is a very important distinction that explains why your comparison of CRPGs writers versus game-masters doesn't work, on one hand, and why your theory that most GMs ought to be lame since they allegedly overrate themselves as designers, storytellers and writers isn't worth a peanut, to be blunt. (furthermore, to sidetrack on this topic, this distinction is IMO what makes some DMs poor and some DMs great, though obviously not the only critera of selection. This is where actually the concept of railroading takes root: by considering RPG sessions as "stories" to be told)

Others on these boards believe so as well: you can find loads of threads where this subject of role-playing versus storytelling shows up time and time again.

 

[rounser]

Point me to even one computer game that is not a total railroad.

Baldurs Gate I & II for instance represent much, much more meaningful player choice than Dragonlance Chronicles....and they're small beer compared to worldspanning games. To compete with this, the DM must improvise (or use sparse macro-level notes covering a lot of territory, the details of which must be improvised, which is nearly the same thing), and then it's all down to your opinion on improvisation quality versus prepared material.

Heck, even Pool of Radiance wasn't a railroad - it didn't force you to complete everything, nor in a certain set order like all three Adventure Paths for P&P do, and that's ooooooold. The computer game medium doesn't support such railroading, because people would complain about the straitjacket limitations on campaign flow which are taken for granted in P&P games.