Ryan Dancey speaks - the Most Successful Year for Fantasy RPGaming ever. However...

[rounser]

See: that's precisely why we cannot agree.

No, you've abandoned your original argument and gone off on some tangent. Good luck with that and you can declare victory on those terms if you like, but I'm not going to follow you down that irrelevant path.

 

[Odhanan]

Baldurs Gate I & II for instance

You've got to be joking. There is an illusion of choices, while in fact the story is railroaded from beginning to end. What camouflages the whole thing is the side quests and the personal quests depending on character classes which are themselves railroaded.

Let me ask you this one: Can you, in Baldur's Gate II, confront the serial killer of the Bridge District without talking to the prostitute? No, you can't.
Can you choose to ally with the bad guy and his sister and wipe out the elves? No, you can't. It looks like you've got the choice through convoluted programming of situations in a manner of "IF PCs do this ... THEN this happens". This is still railroaded though: in the end you have to confront the vampire sister, then go through the underdark or with the ship through sahuagin territory to arrive to the underdark (if I remember well), then meet the elves, then kill the bad guy.

 

[rounser]

You've got to be joking. There is a illusion of choices,

Yes, clever isn't it? Many a DM won't even give you that; they'll present a single hook, and that's it. Either take it or there's no more game.

while in fact the story is railroaded from beginning to start. What camouflages the whole thing is the side quests and the personal quests depending on character classes.

And here's the critical thing - you're not forced to take all those quests (except for exceptions at the start and the end), nor do all of them in a certain order (again, there are exceptions), and you can actually explore the world and discover plot hooks. The page count to do this in P&P is prohibitive, so it's not done.

Shackled City adventure path, for instance, doesn't even offer those properties - it's 100% railroad. Baldurs Gate II offers large chunks of choice of how the campaign will go next, even if the outcome is railroaded and funnels into a predictable ending. Does your home campaign offer that, without extensive improvisation? Most don't, it seems.

Maybe someone more knowledgeable than I can offer insight into the degree of railroad in WoW.

 

[Hairfoot]

Many a DM [will] present a single hook, and that's it. Either take it or there's no more game.

Rounser, you've made some excellent points, and I certainly don't want to take up a stale argument where Odhanon left off, but I must disagree.

A big, fat first-session hook is a necessity. Giving the players a foothold on the plot(s) is as important as setting the scene and location. You can't criticise a DM for wishing players would stick to the campaign areas which have the best support and detail, but a DM who's done his preparation should have no trouble letting the players roam where they like and do as they will.

It's easy to provide examples of DM railroading, but most of them involve the players being actively malicious toward the DM's work (such as the classic "attack any NPC who doesn't give my PC the world on a plate" style of play).

If ruthless railroading has been your experience of DMs, I urge you to find a new one. D&D can be so much better than the bland walk-through you've described.

 

[Odhanan]

Yes, clever isn't it? Many a DM won't even give you that; they'll present a single hook, and that's it. Either take it or there's no more game.

Baldur's Gate: you are forced to leave Candle Keep. Gorion gets killed. I call that a pretty obvious kick in your butt to start adventuring. There's no choice in here.

Baldur's Gate II: you are the prisoner of Irenicus. Imoen shows up and opens your cell. What is there to do besides escape? You escape, then. You find yourself on Waukeen's Promenade. Irenicus uses spells vs. Shadow Thieves and Imoen, the Cowled Wizards show up, Irenicus and Imoen are taken. Goal from there? Rescue Imoen/understand what's going on. Is there a choice? No.

Icewind Dale: Hrothgar speaks to you and offers to embark upon an expedition. If you want to go on with the game, you'd better accept his proposition.

KOTOR: You are on the Endar Spire. Your ship is attacked. You run to an escape pod. You wake up on Taris and must find Bastila. Later, you can visit worlds in any order, but you must visit them all and collect all Star Maps. Whether you fell to the Dark Side or not, you must defeat Darth Malak, either way.

Need I go on?

 

[rounser]

Baldur's Gate...<snip snip snip>

Refer to above:

you're not forced to take all those quests (except for exceptions at the start and the end)

No, they're not devoid of railroading, but the fact remains that these games offer a lot more choice than virtually any P&P campaign modules (unless you consider what corridor to go down next a meaningful choice) and homebrews which aren't improvised.

In terms of degrees of railroading, these beat most P&P D&D campaigns into a cocked hat (published ones at least, YMMV for homebrews). The Adventure Paths of WOTC and Paizo, for instance, feature not just one "campaign starting railroad", but no choice of what adventure goes next whatsoever, and no detailed side treks to explore or skip....and that's been the rule, not the exception.

I don't want this to be the case, but it is. At least recognise the problem already!

 

[Odhanan]

No, they're not devoid of railroading

That makes my case, IMO.

but the fact remains that these games offer a lot more choice than virtually any P&P campaign modules

I do not agree at all. See my previous posts about DMing and the many GMs I knew. I think this pseudo-fact is just an opinion of yours that is based on nothing concrete whatsoever.

You cannot speak of your own experience of DMs as being an absolute rule when it comes to talent and inspiration of DMs out there. You've been unlucky, I'm sorry for you, but I can't let you make generalities that do not feel right to my own experience.

 

[Crothian]

In terms of degrees of railroading, these beat most P&P D&D campaigns into a cocked hat (published ones at least, YMMV for homebrews). The Adventure Paths of WOTC and Paizo, for instance, feature not just one "campaign starting railroad", but no choice of what adventure goes next whatsoever, and no detailed side treks to explore or skip....and that's been the rule, not the exception.

That's why P&P games have DMs. A DM can fix this and the good ones do. In these adventure quests it is also assumed that the DM does more then just these adventures. THe 8 modules designed by Wizards are not meant to alone take a party fro level 1 to 20. Also, there are campaign books out there like Drow Wars by Mongoose that are not like these.

 

[rounser]

That makes my case, IMO.

I see.

A DM can fix this and the good ones do.

A DM can dance the tango if he likes too, but most don't.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I have to agree with rounser at least to this extent: published adventures, run as-written, are almost inevitably "railroads" and moreso than most console and almost all PC RPGs in that they offer very little in the way of sidequests.

Now, in actual play, does that hold up? Not necessarily. A really excellent GM can roll with player decisions and produce a compelling story and encounters. I suppose he could do so from the basis of a published adventure, though how or why I couldn't say.

Most average and even good GMs can't. Unless they purely improvise or have a vast amount of prepared material, they have no choice but to use "soft railroading" (giving players the illusion of choice - if plot hook a. is ignored, proceed to plot hook b.: if the players go south, the dungeon is south, if north, north).

Within the course of an adventure (a "quest" in PC RPG terms), players have more choice - though often less than is posited here -, but in choosing what they do? Far less.

Ask yourself not, "did I have the choice to switch sides, or leave the village to its fate, or ignore the fate of the world" more, "could the campaign have proceeded without a total rewiring if I had done so?"

If the common ENWorlder experience (as opposed to the very best experiences from a long and mixed gaming career) is that, yes, you could and no, the GM wouldn't miss a beat or need to prepare more material... well, you are, I suspect, rather more fortunate than the average player.

Now personally, I don't care. I prefer console RPGs to PC because they prize story and gameplay over options. They're "total railroads," which allows them to weave complex plots and characters and still deliver a dynamite gameplay experience. In P&P campaigns, as a player, I'd rather have a good storyline and make a character who fits it, rather than having all the options in the world... as long as they involve dungeon-crawling.