Scaling down monsters?

[bennyhobo]

Forgive me if a thread on this already exists. I tried doing a search of the forum first, but couldn't get it to work.

I'm planning to buy a subscription to D&D Insider. The tools on there look pretty great to me, as a newbie DM. For the adventure I'm putting together, I want to use monsters that I've got minis for. But most of them are much higher levels than my party with their default stat cards. So I'm hoping I can use the Monster Builder on D&DI to level down some of these creatures.

I don't want to put a level 2 party against a Beholder or anything. But, as an example, I've got a Greenvise Vine mini. The stat card it comes with puts it at level 14 or something (I might be recalling that wrong, but higher than I want at least). I want to push it down to 3 or 4. I figure they could realistically encounter a vine of just about any level, so it's probably not too upsetting to give this a try.

So my question: Is this the kind of thing that I'll be able to do with the Monster Builder? Or would I be better off just doing it on my own? Is there a database of this sort of thing already existing that I don't know about? Any advice for scaling monsters in general?

Thanks!

 

[the Jester]

I am totally sold on the Monster Builder. It should do what you want- although dropping when you de-level a monster that much, you should prolly check it for crazy abilities that you want to modify. I don't think the MB will automatically change ongoing damage for example.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

As a rule of thumb, de-leveling doesn't work well past five levels. So to pit low level PCs against the greenvise...you'll want to have a serious look at its abilities and possibly neuter them.

 

[Mesh Hong]

The Greenvice is a level 7 soldier in MM2.

I am not sure of the copyright issues around posting delevelled creatures on these boards, so I have created a level 4 creature that is coincidentally similar........


Grabbing Vinelet Level 4 Soldier
Large Natural Beast (plant) XP 175

Initiative +2 Senses Perception +3, blindsight 10
HP 57; Bloodied 28
AC 20; Fortitude 18, Reflex 14, Will 16
Speed 4 (forestwalk)

Vine Lash (Standard; at-will)
Attack +11 vs. AC; 1d8+4 damage

Vine Grab (Standard; at-will)
Reach 4; attack +9 vs. Reflex; 1d8+4 damage; on hit target is grabbed
(escape ends)

Coiling Grip (Minor; at-will) ♦ grabbed target only
Grabbed target only; attack +9 vs. Fortitude; 1d8 damage; on hit target is
restrained and takes 4 ongoing damage (save ends both); Grabbing Vinelet
may not use this power if any target is already subject to this attack

Vine Pull (Minor; at-will) ♦ grabbed target only
Grabbed target only; Vinelet pulls the target 2 squares

Alignment Unaligned
Str 19 (+6) Dex 10 (+2) Wis 13 (+3)
Con 17 (+5) Int 2 (-2) Cha 6 (+0)

anyway, I hope this helps.

 

[bennyhobo]

Awesome. I looked at the original monster, and it was actually level 7 to start with. My remembering level 14 was wrong. So taking it down to level 4 isn't too bad.

Love those stats! Thanks!

I'm going to check out the monster builder too, since I'll have several of these things to adjust.

 

[Uber Dungeon]

I'd suggest thoroughly absorbing the monster manual and get a good feel for what different levels of monsters are capable of such as initiative, HP, speed of different size monsters, Attack bonus, ability sores, special ability's and the difference between an elite or solo monster, solider, lurker, brute, controller etc.
this is a good skill to have for coming up with monster/NPC's on the fly.

Also you can use asmor.com 4e monster math cruncher to come up with level 1 - 30 hp, attack bonus, ability score and more to help down level stuff.
4e Monster Math Cruncher - Asmor.com

 

[bennyhobo]

Can I just say how awesome the Monster Builder is?

The Monster Builder is awesome.

Thanks. That's all.

 

[eriktheguy]

Get monster builder for sure. I do what you are talking about EVERY SESSION. If I feel like a black dragon and the PCs are level 9, I look at the monster builder. The closest black dragon is level 11, so I de-level it to 9.

Note that changing level by more than 3 or 4 usually requires some additional attention. Also, changing the level past any tier barrier (11 or 21) requires a lot of extra attention.

Even a beholder encounter at level 2 is easy to build this way. The beholder gaunt (level 5) could easily be reduced to level 2 or 3 and sent against a level 2 party.

There are almost no level barriers in 4e. Orcs, dragons and beholders can really be battled at any level. Adventure tools really take this to the next level.

Another peice of advice is to use any old monster of the right level and role in the monster builder for your encounters. I wanted my characters to battle a Warlock Knight of Vasaa (Forgotten realms); a solo controller with necrotic and fire magic in dark iron armor. I simply used the stats for a grey dragon of the same level, re-flavored the abilities, and changed a few damage types.

When my players needed to fight ogres at level 2 or 3 I just used the stats for some human guards of the same level. When they needed to fight level 8 human guards, I used ogres. It's really great.

 

[eriktheguy]

No seriously, I love the monster builder so much. I think the forum goers should write wizards a big open letter detailing how much we love it and donate something to charity in their name.

 

[Blastin]

Yup...another vote for how awesome the monster builder is for DMs. I have been doing a Red Hand of Doom conversion and the monster builder has been invaluable. I have also done what eriktheguy does: take another monster that has about the abilities I want, tweek it a bit, and then reskin it to whatever I need . It's also easy and fun to make up new variants and even new powers. I made up a unique ogre for the first encounter. I'll see if I can post it here.