Scary monks! [3.5]

[drnuncheon]

I was sure that the monk ki fists were "for the purposes of defeating DR considered equivalent to" rather than "his hands turn into magic lawful superhard metal".

If you look at the scans at GamingReport you will see that while you are correct for the first two, the ki strike (adamantine) specifically says that it works ahainst DR and hardness.

This is, I suppose, to be the way 3.5 treats the classic martial arts 'destroy a stack of bricks' ability.

J

 

[Wolfspider]

Being very hard but blunt wouldn't help get through any material.

Consider the kinds of tools that are used by construction workers to tear down buildings. I don't see a lot of sharp instruments there.

 

[mmu1]

Yep, we called it flurry of misses too. Monks in 3.0 blossom SUPER late, like 10th level. We've given it several goes and, well, low level 3.0 monks stink. These are welcome changes.

And since Monks now only lose all of the Flurry of Blows attack penalty at 9th level, and get an extra attack at their highest BAB at 11th, this change doesn't really do that much to stop them from "blossoming" late, does it?

As for not being great in combat... Isn't that the balancing factor for having so many special abilities, great saves, spell resistance?
I don't know how far this change will swing the balance, but I don't think they should ever be able to hold their own against the "warrior" classes in a stand-up fight.

 

[hong]

And since Monks now only lose all of the Flurry of Blows attack penalty at 9th level, and get an extra attack at their highest BAB at 11th, this change doesn't really do that much to stop them from "blossoming" late, does it?

It basically replaces the klunky unarmed BAB progression with something that's hopefully easier for people to understand. Where the class gains is in being able to swop out previously-fixed abilities like stunning attack, deflect arrows and improved trip for bonus feats; and in getting ki strike a lot sooner.

As for not being great in combat... Isn't that the balancing factor for having so many special abilities, great saves, spell resistance?
I don't know how far this change will swing the balance, but I don't think they should ever be able to hold their own against the "warrior" classes in a stand-up fight.

The monk is still as dependent on high stats as ever, so they're always going to be behind the 8-ball in that respect. 4 attacks at +12, for 1d10+3, is pissy compared to the greatsword-wielding guy who gets 3 attacks at +19 for 3d6+11.

 

[mmu1]

The monk is still as dependent on high stats as ever, so they're always going to be behind the 8-ball in that respect. 4 attacks at +12, for 1d10+3, is pissy compared to the greatsword-wielding guy who gets 3 attacks at +20 for 3d6+12.

Yeah, but then again, no one remotely compares to the high-Strength guy with a greatsword in terms of damage anyway (even if he doesn't quite hit three times at +20 for 3d6+12 damage...), so I'm not sure that's the best thing to compare the Monk to.

The real problem with the Monk wasn't a lack of balance compared to other characters (aside from problems inherent in the high stat requirements, and it's hardly the only class with that particular problem) but the fact that many people just didn't enjoy all the things they get to make up for reduced combat ability all that much (probably because many of the abilities are passive or their use depends on circumstances you don't control, unlike being able to hit things with shapr objects) so it looks like instead of actually re-balancing the class' abilities, they're just upping their combat power. I think it might be a questionable design decision.

 

[hong]

Yeah, but then again, no one remotely compares to the high-Strength guy with a greatsword in terms of damage anyway (even if he doesn't quite hit three times at +20 for 3d6+12 damage...), so I'm not sure that's the best thing to compare the Monk to.

You wanted to compare to the fighter, I compared to the fighter.

Take the sword-and-shield guy. With full plate and large shield, he'll probably have around AC 30-33 at 11th level. The monk, with Dex 19, Wis 18 and bracers of armour, is pushing it to get to AC 29.

The real problem with the Monk wasn't a lack of balance compared to other characters (aside from problems inherent in the high stat requirements, and it's hardly the only class with that particular problem)

I'm not aware of any other class that's dependent on stats as much as the monk. Even the paladin can get by quite handily without uber stats.

but the fact that many people just didn't enjoy all the things they get to make up for reduced combat ability all that much, so it looks like instead of actually re-balancing the class' abilities, they're just upping their combat power. I think it might be a questionable design decision.

The only things they've upped are the bonus feats and the ki strike. Ki strike was literally _useless_ before. By the time you got to +1, a lot of the stuff you were fighting would have DR +2; the same when you got to +2; etc. And what's wrong with making the class so that more people will actually want to play it? Believe me, it's still not going to steal the spotlight from anyone.

 

[mmu1]

The only things they've upped are the bonus feats and the ki strike. Ki strike was literally _useless_ before. By the time you got to +1, a lot of the stuff you were fighting would have DR +2; the same when you got to +2; etc. And what's wrong with making the class so that more people will actually want to play it? Believe me, it's still not going to steal the spotlight from anyone.

While the overall number of attacks they get might not change, the fact that at level 11+ they get to make three of them at their full BAB is a huge upgrade compared to their old iterative attack scheme and -2 to hit from Flurry. But it's not like I'm saying the sky is falling... Wait and see, I guess.

 

[Tharizdun]

You wanted to compare to the fighter, I compared to the fighter.

Take the sword-and-shield guy. With full plate and large shield, he'll probably have around AC 30-33 at 11th level. The monk, with Dex 19, Wis 18 and bracers of armour, is pushing it to get to AC 29.

a shield AND a greatsword? woah...some fighter! ;-)

 

[RigaMortus]

a shield AND a greatsword? woah...some fighter! ;-)

I think he is comparing just a sword (medium weapon) and shield. In a previous post he was comparing a Greatsword user, not in this post. Besides, ever hear of Monkey Grip?

 

[Lord Rasputin]

hong spake the gospel about ki strike and flurry of blows.

Two other things:

* If you're not facing wizards as foes often, I'd rather have Improved Grapple instead of Stunning Fist. My GM is letting my monk make the switch, and the two of us justify it as such: my monk has NEVER made a successful Stunning Fist, but he has successfully grappled once, even with the Attacks of Opportunity.

* The additions to the monk's class skill list are nice, especially since Wizards kept the monk multiclassing restriction. I'm putting my next stat boost into Int so I can take advantage of some of these skills, namely Sense Motive and Knowledge (religion).