{Settings Tournament} Round 5 - Finals! Greyhawk vs. Planescape

[SirXaris]

The World of Greyhawk all the way, baby!

 

[Shemeska]

No disrespect, Shemeska...I've seen you post this before and...I don't get it.

I mean, I can infer from the context this is meant as some kind of jokey/cutesy "threat."

I just don't get it.

To what is it referring...and why should I be [faux] "intimidated" or "scared" if you want to "post in character"?

My name on Enworld and various other places online is a character from Planescape, Shemeshka the Marauder (missing an h - there's a story there). She was a powerful arcanaloth in Sigil, probably the richest and one of the most powerful in terms of influence. She also had a hair trigger violent streak, a gigantic ego, godawful vanity, and a looming question of whether that was all just a public act to appear as a petty albeit powerful socialite, glossing over her nature as a bloodthirsty fiend utterly devoid of mercy.

She appeared in much the same form in 3e, being name dropped in a few places over the edition whenever Sigil was up for discussion. She appeared in 4e as well (in altered form to fit the very different cosmology) in Dungeon 205's 'Demonomicon of Iggwilv: Shemeshka the Marauder' which I co-authored with Brian James.



Artwork from Dungeon 205

Fun character and at GenCon this past year I finally got to meet Ray Vallese who created her back in 2e. I apologized for hijacking the name of the character he created in the first place. He was totally cool about it.

 

[Balesir]

I've noticed one segment of folks that really like the 4e cosmology and despise the Great Wheel (though the Wheel predates Planescape completely).

Though this might possibly be a factor, I will testify to the fact that liking 4E's cosmology and liking PS are far from mutually exclusive. I have long held that a place (called Sigil, even) where folk believe in the Great Wheel in the 4E cosmological setting makes sense with no trouble at all. If the portals that join the planes exist as defined in the PS material, a body could easily be convinced that the "planes" of the gods and demons form a "Great Wheel". Indeed, some of the conceits such as "leaping from one plane to another" sound very like things you may very well find in the 4E setting.

So, 4E cosmology as "the truth" with enough portals to let folks believe in the "Great Wheel" without obvious contradiction describes my current Sigil/PlaneScape very well. And for those who shout that such-and-such-an-"outer plane" is infinite and a separate plane, not some "island" (or even "continent") in the Astral Sea, I have two words: "prove it".

 

[GX.Sigma]

So, 4E cosmology as "the truth" with enough portals to let folks believe in the "Great Wheel" without obvious contradiction describes my current Sigil/PlaneScape very well.

But why does there have to be a "truth" at all? One of the major themes of Planescape is that nobody really knows much about how the multiverse works, and it's all up to interpretation.

 

[Mercurius]

Along the lines of what [MENTION=11697]Shemeska[/MENTION] said, it may be that Greyhawk is winning this poll because its more popular for those folks for whom neither choice is their favorite, but Greyhawk is more palatable and/or has the nostalgia effect going on. For most folks who started playing in the 70s or 80s, Greyhawk was the first published setting, so it feels like "home."

I think I'm an example of this. In a way I don't even really like Greyhawk, but i love it for its classic D&D feel and iconic adventures. Actually, I don't really know if I have a favorite D&D setting. My favorite published fantasy settings are all for different games, such as Talislanta and Earthdawn. And of course my very favorite settings are the ones I create myself.

 

[Shemeska]

Though this might possibly be a factor, I will testify to the fact that liking 4E's cosmology and liking PS are far from mutually exclusive.

It's not so much the structure of the planes or the model used to represent them that makes it mutually exclusive for me, it's the total aggregate of the many ways that 4e intentionally moved away from the Great Wheel and Planescape's expansion thereof, its in-game history, races, and atmosphere by design.

You could do Planescape in the 4e cosmology, but I personally find it awkward: what with the different in-game history, no active Blood War, a seemingly arbitrary number of alignments excised, a large number of outsider races completely removed with some of their names recycled into very different creatures (archons no longer LG celestials but evil elementals for instance), the 'loths alignment and reason for existence being removed and their status as a race unto themselves questionable at best, etc.

It depends on what you want I suppose. A planar game? Absolutely yes you can do it. A version of Sigil? Sure. A Planescape game? I'm not sure that there's enough in common between Great Wheel-based Planescape and the 4e cosmology. I find there to be too many differences both in content and design aesthetic to do it without it feeling... off... But at the same time that's only my personal opinion, and if you can make it work for you, more power to you. It's not my place to say what works for you and your games.

Edit: Apologies for the thread derail here. I won't continue on this line within the thread itself.

 

[dd.stevenson]

Along the lines of what @Shemeska said, it may be that Greyhawk is winning this poll because its more popular for those folks for whom neither choice is their favorite

Yeah, that's me. I don't hate either, but I can't say I would be devastated if both had been missing from the final round.

 

[Hussar]

Didn't you just criticise people for conflating the Great Wheel cosmology for Planescape Shemeska?

It's not so much the structure of the planes or the model used to represent them that makes it mutually exclusive for me, it's the total aggregate of the many ways that 4e intentionally moved away from the Great Wheel and Planescape's expansion thereof, its in-game history, races, and atmosphere by design.

You could do Planescape in the 4e cosmology, but I personally find it awkward: what with the different in-game history, no active Blood War, a seemingly arbitrary number of alignments excised, a large number of outsider races completely removed with some of their names recycled into very different creatures (archons no longer LG celestials but evil elementals for instance), the 'loths alignment and reason for existence being removed and their status as a race unto themselves questionable at best, etc.

But, the Blood War has no place in the Great Wheel. It's a purely PS construct. I can love the Great Wheel and completely remove the Blood War without changing the Great Wheel one iota from it's 1e presentation. The outsiders were largely introduced in Planescape supplements, meaning that their PS versions do not actually appear in the Great Wheel. Which means that bringing them into core, bereft of any PS material is not problematic at all for someone who likes the Great Wheel but dislikes PS. The 'Loth were Daemons originally, and "mercenary demon" does not require NE whatsoever, since mercenary could be any alignment.

It depends on what you want I suppose. A planar game? Absolutely yes you can do it. A version of Sigil? Sure. A Planescape game? I'm not sure that there's enough in common between Great Wheel-based Planescape and the 4e cosmology. I find there to be too many differences both in content and design aesthetic to do it without it feeling... off... But at the same time that's only my personal opinion, and if you can make it work for you, more power to you. It's not my place to say what works for you and your games.

Edit: Apologies for the thread derail here. I won't continue on this line within the thread itself.

You might not be able to do Planescape, but, a Great Wheel game? No problems whatsoever.

Which, to me, is a complete win for 4e cosmology. I get to use all those nifty planar creatures without having to worry about all the PS material that some feel is core canon for the game.

IOW, I could have a devil with demon body guards in 1e and I can do it again in 4e (and 3e, although not 3.5 since PS managed to creep in a bit more there) and not have to worry about the Canon Police criticizing me for it.

 

[Balesir]

But why does there have to be a "truth" at all? One of the major themes of Planescape is that nobody really knows much about how the multiverse works, and it's all up to interpretation.

Yes, that was kind-of my point and why I put "the truth" in quotes. Just because one set of people conceive of the planes as being in an Astral Sea/Elemental Chaos configuration doesn't stop others conceiving of them in a Great Wheel configuration because of the structure (or lack of it) engendered by portals and similar conduits. The real "truth" is a chaotic mish-mash; order is imposed by conception, not by nature.

 

[Balesir]

You could do Planescape in the 4e cosmology, but I personally find it awkward: what with the different in-game history, no active Blood War, a seemingly arbitrary number of alignments excised, a large number of outsider races completely removed with some of their names recycled into very different creatures (archons no longer LG celestials but evil elementals for instance), the 'loths alignment and reason for existence being removed and their status as a race unto themselves questionable at best, etc.

Fair enough. With the Devils and Demons on different sides of the "Elemental divide" in 4E I have no problem imagining a "Blood War" still going on in some secluded corner of the infinity of the planes, and alignment always seemed daft to me, anyway; fine as an artifact of philosophical BS, but ultimately fairly meaningless.

And a 'loth by any other name would smell just as sweet... (erm...)