Olgar Shiverstone
Legend
Copied to split the topic, as this seems to be something that needs to be discussed in a hopefully civilized manner.
Lwaxy
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Sexism and presumed sexism in RPGs
- Thread starter Olgar Shiverstone
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edemaitre
Explorer
Women and role-playing
I agree that there are some cultural factors and styles that may affect the participation of female role-players. However, it's best to approach promoting your game to individual women and groups.
Is there a lot of locker-room, sexist humor? Some of the women I've gamed with were thick-skinned, others less so. Does your wife prefer more narrative-style storytelling to hack-and-slash combat or statistically maximized resource management? Again, I've know both men and women who preferred one over the other.
Blue Rose, Mouse Guard, and various games based on FATE or Cortex focus on building relationships and character development. Some of these systems are also less crunchy and thus more accessible to casual (vs. hardcore or competitive) gamers.
With any individual, Game Master, or group of gamers, it's best to find what rules set, subgenre, and style of play is most appealing. It's also a good idea to be patient -- a game in the style of Dresden Files or Game of Thrones usually won't capture the feeling or player interest in just one session.
I agree that there are some cultural factors and styles that may affect the participation of female role-players. However, it's best to approach promoting your game to individual women and groups.
Is there a lot of locker-room, sexist humor? Some of the women I've gamed with were thick-skinned, others less so. Does your wife prefer more narrative-style storytelling to hack-and-slash combat or statistically maximized resource management? Again, I've know both men and women who preferred one over the other.
Blue Rose, Mouse Guard, and various games based on FATE or Cortex focus on building relationships and character development. Some of these systems are also less crunchy and thus more accessible to casual (vs. hardcore or competitive) gamers.
With any individual, Game Master, or group of gamers, it's best to find what rules set, subgenre, and style of play is most appealing. It's also a good idea to be patient -- a game in the style of Dresden Files or Game of Thrones usually won't capture the feeling or player interest in just one session.
TanithT
First Post
Don't use insulting art. A female fighter wearing a chainmail bikini is a no-go; it's obvious that what she is wearing is designed for attracting men, not for actually fighting. It depicts her as an ornamental object with no power who is good for nothing but looking pretty.
I'm not quite sure how to convey exactly how frustrating, insulting and rage-inducing it is to be told these things without a single word being spoken:
1. As a female, you are powerless - you are good for nothing and can not actually fight even if you are supposed to be a fighter. You can only stand there and look pretty in fake sexy armor while the real people get real stuff accomplished.
2. You exist to be judged on your appearance and exploited for it. Comments will always be made on what you look like and how big your bazongas are, not on anything you actually do or say. Only what you wear is important.
3. You are not a real person and can not just be treated like a person. You will be treated and judged solely on the basis of your sex. You have absolutely no chance of being seen or treated like a normal, ordinary human being.
Seriously, that is the message that is being sent with every depiction of a female fantasy character who is being shown as passive and powerless - eg, wearing fake armor that might as well be silk stockings and a bra for all it covers. Just don't do it, please.
I'm not quite sure how to convey exactly how frustrating, insulting and rage-inducing it is to be told these things without a single word being spoken:
1. As a female, you are powerless - you are good for nothing and can not actually fight even if you are supposed to be a fighter. You can only stand there and look pretty in fake sexy armor while the real people get real stuff accomplished.
2. You exist to be judged on your appearance and exploited for it. Comments will always be made on what you look like and how big your bazongas are, not on anything you actually do or say. Only what you wear is important.
3. You are not a real person and can not just be treated like a person. You will be treated and judged solely on the basis of your sex. You have absolutely no chance of being seen or treated like a normal, ordinary human being.
Seriously, that is the message that is being sent with every depiction of a female fantasy character who is being shown as passive and powerless - eg, wearing fake armor that might as well be silk stockings and a bra for all it covers. Just don't do it, please.
Zelda Themelin
First Post
I have noticed that female players vary like male players. Most like being skillful and kick ass. Most females really hate system that forces them to play "females roles" and get sub-par stats because of that. Male players tend to have more female characters in those systems than femele ones, if allowed.
You really can't make game for gender. Maybe to some culturally brainwashed little girls and boys but that really goes before people start playing rpg:s.
Curiously I've noticed that many females including me kinda like named magic items. Some unique name for sword/armor etc and some little quality more than +1 to back it up is something really cool. Appearance of gear is secondary to that. IME females and males pay about same amount of interst for character looks, some are all over such little details, and some coudn't care less, as long as stats are ok. Apperance likers are ones more likely to hide helmet/shouders in World of Warcraft MMO even if they otherwise wear things that look crappy just for stats.
There are about same amount of femele min-maxers than males.
Most female players have one female friend that also plays. And they almost always pair up as type A and type B personalities. B is the one that just doesn't learn the rules and relies on other people what to roll. A-types are there to play rpg, B-types often socially hang and often get datinig someone in the group. I say often, since IME it has been pretty damn common.
Avoid any "special rules" for girls. They exist to screw us up. No only-for females rules, unless you wish to make rules about pregnacy and childbirth, which might come up. In last game I played that caused so many stupid arguments I wish there had been rules.
And with that never ever force that on character. It's annoying and should happen anyhow on personal (not-adventure) time.
If you can't be mature about such things avoid such rules altogether.
I recently got into this new group that uses highly vulgar language and tells nasty in-game jokes. I am fine but I wouldn't ask my sister to play with these guys.
Best kinda roleplay system for femeles is guite gender-neutral one. Sure it can have sexy things, I meant in way system doesn't differiate sexes a lot, but allows players to do that if they want to.
Also system should support more combat focused game and more story-focused game equally White Wolf games did that quite well, even if rules kinda, um, failed sometimes.
Don't assume that all female gamers come from same mold.
Also make the universe you write have some interesting qualities. Basic D&D universes are kinda boring. We have seen those. If you want to attact new gamers in any system use some old that works and add some new to get people interested.
Also, we want "awesome powers". Most femeles dislike realistic historical simulations. There are those out there too, but they often have picked different hobby than rpg:s. Fsntasy is supposed to be, like, fantastic. All females I play with give you roll-eyes if its called "dungeons & dragons" and doesn't have real dungeons and no dragons. Femeles tend to draw deep conclusions about impressions.
And we don't play games like Blue Rose. First of all its too uh... not really avarage female idea of cool/romantic. Plus the world was lame. Girls who are into relationship/romance fantasies do that with books/movies/famious unreachable people. White Wolf game worked because it was game about violence/politic/relationships of supernatural horrors. Who looked hot or at least bad-ass. But were not weak or vunerable. Or petite and virginal. You were crusider fighting for your purity if you were that, within system that was thinly veiled laws of the jungle. And those games had lot of example character types ripped from movies/literature and they had inspirational guide for books/movies at end of each book. And it world similar to this one.
Roleplaying is however quite quiet where I live, no more new players, and if, they are rare and often related to oldie rpg-players as their kids who maybe recruit some friends or just play with pap and hide the shame.
I think we need new coming of rpg:s if we want more of anything to like our games. But there is so much compettion for our time now and roleplaying games take lot of time.
You really can't make game for gender. Maybe to some culturally brainwashed little girls and boys but that really goes before people start playing rpg:s.
Curiously I've noticed that many females including me kinda like named magic items. Some unique name for sword/armor etc and some little quality more than +1 to back it up is something really cool. Appearance of gear is secondary to that. IME females and males pay about same amount of interst for character looks, some are all over such little details, and some coudn't care less, as long as stats are ok. Apperance likers are ones more likely to hide helmet/shouders in World of Warcraft MMO even if they otherwise wear things that look crappy just for stats.
There are about same amount of femele min-maxers than males.
Most female players have one female friend that also plays. And they almost always pair up as type A and type B personalities. B is the one that just doesn't learn the rules and relies on other people what to roll. A-types are there to play rpg, B-types often socially hang and often get datinig someone in the group. I say often, since IME it has been pretty damn common.
Avoid any "special rules" for girls. They exist to screw us up. No only-for females rules, unless you wish to make rules about pregnacy and childbirth, which might come up. In last game I played that caused so many stupid arguments I wish there had been rules.
And with that never ever force that on character. It's annoying and should happen anyhow on personal (not-adventure) time.
If you can't be mature about such things avoid such rules altogether.
I recently got into this new group that uses highly vulgar language and tells nasty in-game jokes. I am fine but I wouldn't ask my sister to play with these guys.
Best kinda roleplay system for femeles is guite gender-neutral one. Sure it can have sexy things, I meant in way system doesn't differiate sexes a lot, but allows players to do that if they want to.
Also system should support more combat focused game and more story-focused game equally White Wolf games did that quite well, even if rules kinda, um, failed sometimes.
Don't assume that all female gamers come from same mold.
Also make the universe you write have some interesting qualities. Basic D&D universes are kinda boring. We have seen those. If you want to attact new gamers in any system use some old that works and add some new to get people interested.
Also, we want "awesome powers". Most femeles dislike realistic historical simulations. There are those out there too, but they often have picked different hobby than rpg:s. Fsntasy is supposed to be, like, fantastic. All females I play with give you roll-eyes if its called "dungeons & dragons" and doesn't have real dungeons and no dragons. Femeles tend to draw deep conclusions about impressions.
And we don't play games like Blue Rose. First of all its too uh... not really avarage female idea of cool/romantic. Plus the world was lame. Girls who are into relationship/romance fantasies do that with books/movies/famious unreachable people. White Wolf game worked because it was game about violence/politic/relationships of supernatural horrors. Who looked hot or at least bad-ass. But were not weak or vunerable. Or petite and virginal. You were crusider fighting for your purity if you were that, within system that was thinly veiled laws of the jungle. And those games had lot of example character types ripped from movies/literature and they had inspirational guide for books/movies at end of each book. And it world similar to this one.
Roleplaying is however quite quiet where I live, no more new players, and if, they are rare and often related to oldie rpg-players as their kids who maybe recruit some friends or just play with pap and hide the shame.
I think we need new coming of rpg:s if we want more of anything to like our games. But there is so much compettion for our time now and roleplaying games take lot of time.
Yora
Legend
It's an insult to men as well.
"You don't want think about reality. Here, be distracted by boobs!"
But otherwise, I havn't seen art that 1930s-awful as TanithT described anywhere. I can't remember any princesses that have to be rescued in either 3rd or 4th edition of D&D as well.
I am with Morrus here, that the rules really are not important at all. I've actually run games for two almost exclusively female groups with one or to male players dropping by on occasion, and both time we were playing D&D 3rd Ed.
It's all about the campaign and the adventures that makes the difference.
Electric Wizard
First Post
Most women I know are more amused than offended by how cheesy old-school fantasy art depicts women. That being said, I don't see a lot of that stuff in RPG art these days. I think there are lots of women who want to identify with sexy characters, as long as the characters also capable of holding their own and kicking ass/ruling the castle/researching magic. Almost all art for recent RPG's portrays this pretty well. You almost have to go back to the 80's to find many women portrayed according to negative stereotypes.
A few years ago I DM'd a group with two women. One played a Chaotic Evil tiefling cleric with 20 charisma who usurped the party leader position. The other played a soft-spoken eladrin wizard/aristocrat whose boyfriend played her bodyguard. Two very different people with very different characters, but the rules supported both, and they excelled at their roles.
The campaign worked while it lasted because we toned down the macho talk and dirty jokes. It was different than our typical "guys' night in" games, but we all had a great time. The campaign ended mostly because the tiefling cleric decided that the best way to settle a dispute with a corrupt landowner was to loot and burn down his house in broad daylight.
So I guess I'm casting another vote for "It's up to the group." I think as long as men are welcoming and respectful of social boundaries, women shouldn't have problems.
A few years ago I DM'd a group with two women. One played a Chaotic Evil tiefling cleric with 20 charisma who usurped the party leader position. The other played a soft-spoken eladrin wizard/aristocrat whose boyfriend played her bodyguard. Two very different people with very different characters, but the rules supported both, and they excelled at their roles.
The campaign worked while it lasted because we toned down the macho talk and dirty jokes. It was different than our typical "guys' night in" games, but we all had a great time. The campaign ended mostly because the tiefling cleric decided that the best way to settle a dispute with a corrupt landowner was to loot and burn down his house in broad daylight.
So I guess I'm casting another vote for "It's up to the group." I think as long as men are welcoming and respectful of social boundaries, women shouldn't have problems.
My 2 cents are that I don't mind the existing art - I can suspend my disbelief re: the utility of chainmail bikinis if that's the style of armour in a given RPG. And I prefer it if the art suggests my character is hot .
I think the biggest barrier for me getting started was access to a group. Until I got involved with my husband, I didn't have any friends who played (that I know about... maybe some people were getting together to play and not mentioning it....). I think that if I'd known others and probably at a certain age, specifically other girls who were playing, I would have gotten involved sooner.
I think the biggest barrier for me getting started was access to a group. Until I got involved with my husband, I didn't have any friends who played (that I know about... maybe some people were getting together to play and not mentioning it....). I think that if I'd known others and probably at a certain age, specifically other girls who were playing, I would have gotten involved sooner.
Not only that, to play the "OMG, these games have art that is degrading to women!" card is to disregard all the blatant "women are sex objects" crap that bombards women now in TV and magazines.
the RPG industry has taken a lot of steps to improve their depiction of women, whereas the majority of mass media has done little.
To take offense at RPGs in general on this issue is disingenous and disrespectful of the real effort and progress the industry has made in the advancement of women compared to most of mass media.
While RPGs should continue to work to improve their depiction of women, there are more worthy battlegrounds to fight that cause on in society.
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Google "Avalanche Press d20" and do an image search and you'll find some. Sometimes I had to wonder if they were selling fantasy supplements for d20 games or stroke mags.
There's a lot of sexist art out there and a lot of blogs that will delve into the issue. There's also a lot of good sexy art out there that will be branded as sexist by someone with an axe to grind.
Personally, I think the industry should think in terms of balance. There's nothing inherently wrong with a depiction of a woman or man as a sex object, as being passive, as being helpless and in need of rescue. The problem comes when that's a preponderance of the images. Art should illuminate, uplift, illustrate, attract, and, yes, even pander - all in reasonable balance.
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