Shot on the Run, Manyshot and stuff :)

[rkanodia]

All attack actions are standard actions, but not all standard actions are attack actions. SOR allows only the attack action, not other standard actions such as MS.

I'm sure my ranger friends will be glad to know that Manyshot doesn't draw attacks of opportunity, since it isn't an attack action. I don't think this argument really holds up.

 

[Camarath]

Since Shot on the Run uses an attack action, and an attack action is a type of standard action, and Manyshot counts as a standard action -- I just don't see the problem.

Are you saying that any action in which one makes an attack is considered an Attack Action whether or not the Action you are preforming is covered under the Attack Action section of the rules?

Manyshot is not listed as an option under Attack Action and Manyshot does not say that you may preform it as an Attack Action. Thus unless the definition of what constitutes an Attack Action is expanded from the currently listed Attack options and those Actions that say they can be performed in place of an Attack to include any action that inculdes an Attack, I don't understand how you can justifly a Standard Action, which does not say it can be used as an Attack Action, counting as an Attack Action.

 

[billd91]

Are you saying that any action in which one makes an attack is considered an Attack Action whether or not the Action you are preforming is covered under the Attack Action section of the rules?

Manyshot is not listed as an option under Attack Action and Manyshot does not say that you may preform it as an Attack Action. Thus unless the definition of what constitutes an Attack Action is expanded from the currently listed Attack options and those Actions that say they can be performed in place of an Attack to include any action that inculdes an Attack, I don't understand how you can justifly a Standard Action, which does not say it can be used as an Attack Action, counting as an Attack Action.

Of course an action in which you make an attack is an attack action. What else is it? I don't see how there's any debate there. Depending on the circumstances, mainly how many attacks you're making, it may be a standard action or a full-round action. If it's a single attack, it's a standard action. If it's multiple attacks, it's a full-round action (with certain exceptions like Multishot which is defined as a standard action rather than the full-round action a multiple attack would normally require).

Are you under the impression that the currently listed attack actions in the rules must exhaustively define exactly what constitute an attack action? I'm sure I can think of a few others beyond what's listed (and if I had my rulebook on hand, I'd do so).

Standard actions can, of course, be used as attack actions but that's not all they're limited to. They can also be other non-movement actions that take about the same time and consideration on the part of the character, such as casting a spell or using a skill. They can also be used as a 2nd move action if the character forgoes any other possible standard action, including making an attack.
I think you have some misunderstandings about the meanings of the various actions.

 

[Doc Century]

Are you saying that any action in which one makes an attack is considered an Attack Action whether or not the Action you are preforming is covered under the Attack Action section of the rules?

I'm saying that any action in which one makes an attack must either be a standard action (most single attacks would qualify here), or a full-round action (most multiple attacks in the same round qualify here, with the exception of Manyshot, which is defined as a standard action).

Manyshot is not listed as an option under Attack Action and Manyshot does not say that you may preform it as an Attack Action. Thus unless the definition of what constitutes an Attack Action is expanded from the currently listed Attack options and those Actions that say they can be performed in place of an Attack to include any action that inculdes an Attack, I don't understand how you can justifly a Standard Action, which does not say it can be used as an Attack Action, counting as an Attack Action.

Huh? You lost me there. I'm oversaturated with "Attack" and "Action"!

Doc C

 

[Camarath]

Of course an action in which you make an attack is an attack action. What else is it? I don't see how there's any debate there. Depending on the circumstances, mainly how many attacks you're making, it may be a standard action or a full-round action. If it's a single attack, it's a standard action. If it's multiple attacks, it's a full-round action (with certain exceptions like Multishot which is defined as a standard action rather than the full-round action a multiple attack would normally require).

So you are saying that Cast a Spell, Activate Magic Item, Use Special Ability, Aid Another, Bull Rush, and Charge can all count as an Attack Action and can be used in situations that call for an Attack Action since each does or can inculde an attack.

Are you under the impression that the currently listed attack actions in the rules must exhaustively define exactly what constitute an attack action? I'm sure I can think of a few others beyond what's listed (and if I had my rulebook on hand, I'd do so).

Yes I think when taking an Attack Action you are limited to those actions listed in the rules. Other Actions inculdes Attacks but are not Attack Actions but are Cast a Spell, Charge, or some other type of Action.

Standard actions can, of course, be used as attack actions but that's not all they're limited to. They can also be other non-movement actions that take about the same time and consideration on the part of the character, such as casting a spell or using a skill. They can also be used as a 2nd move action if the character forgoes any other possible standard action, including making an attack.
I think you have some misunderstandings about the meanings of the various actions.

You can use your Standard Action to perform various diferent Actions one of which is an Attack Action (which is defined in the rules) those actions such as Cast Spell, Total Defense, or use of the Manyshot feat are separate Standard Actions. Attack Action is a specific defined action. I believe you are confusing an Attack and an Attack Action. An Attack Action is a Standard Action which allows one to make a single Melee, Ranged, or Unarmed Attack. Many actions allow one to make an attack(s) but are not an Attack Action. Note that a Full Attack is a Full Attack Action not an Attack Action.

 

[Camarath]

Huh? You lost me there. I'm oversaturated with "Attack" and "Action"!

Doc C

Here are the rules on taking the specific action called an Attack Action. Actions not covered in this section while they may include attacking are not considered "Attack Actions".

STANDARD ACTIONS
Attack
Making an attack is a standard action.
Melee Attacks: With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponent within 5 feet. (Opponents within 5 feet are considered adjacent to you.) Some melee weapons have reach, as indicated in their descriptions. With a typical reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can’t strike adjacent foes (those within 5 feet).
Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.
An unarmed character can’t take attacks of opportunity (but see “Armed” Unarmed Attacks, below).
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed.
Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity)
Unarmed Strike Damage: An unarmed strike from a Medium character deals 1d3 points of damage (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). A Small character’s unarmed strike deals 1d2 points of damage, while a Large character’s unarmed strike deals 1d4 points of damage. All damage from unarmed strikes is nonlethal damage. Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on).
Dealing Lethal Damage: You can specify that your unarmed strike will deal lethal damage before you make your attack roll, but you take a -4 penalty on your attack roll. If you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, you can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike without taking a penalty on the attack roll.
Ranged Attacks: With a ranged weapon, you can shoot or throw at any target that is within the weapon’s maximum range and in line of sight. The maximum range for a thrown weapon is five range increments. For projectile weapons, it is ten range increments. Some ranged weapons have shorter maximum ranges, as specified in their descriptions.
Attack Rolls: An attack roll represents your attempts to strike your opponent.
Your attack roll is 1d20 + your attack bonus with the weapon you’re using. If the result is at least as high as the target’s AC, you hit and deal damage.
Automatic Misses and Hits: A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on the attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit. A natural 20 is also a threat-a possible critical hit.
Damage Rolls: If the attack roll result equals or exceeds the target’s AC, the attack hits and you deal damage. Roll the appropriate damage for your weapon. Damage is deducted from the target’s current hit points.
Multiple Attacks: A character who can make more than one attack per round must use the full attack action (see Full-Round Actions, below) in order to get more than one attack.
Shooting or Throwing into a Melee: If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a -4 penalty on your attack roll. Two characters are engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either threatens the other. (An unconscious or otherwise immobilized character is not considered engaged unless he is actually being attacked.)
If your target (or the part of your target you’re aiming at, if it’s a big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character, you can avoid the -4 penalty, even if the creature you’re aiming at is engaged in melee with a friendly character.
Precise Shot: If you have the Precise Shot feat you don’t take this penalty.
Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a -4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round.
Critical Hits: When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target’s Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or “crit”). To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll-another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It doesn’t need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.
A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is x2.
Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Increased Threat Range: Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn’t result in a hit is not a threat.
Increased Critical Multiplier: Some weapons deal better than double damage on a critical hit.
Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit.

 

[The Souljourner]

"Manyshot" is a specific type of standard action.
The "Attack Action" is a specific type of standard action (which has different subtypes).
"Casting a Spell" is a specific type of standard action.

Shot on the Run involves the use of the "Attack Action".

You can't use Shot on the Run with "Casting a Spell" or "Manyshot" because they are not the "Attack Action", they are something else.

It doesn't matter that they are all standard actions, because Manyshot says nothing about working with standard actions, only with the "Attack Action".

-The Souljourner

 

[Doc Century]

Here are the rules on taking the specific action called an Attack Action. Actions not covered in this section while they may include attacking are not considered "Attack Actions".

I'd certainly qualify Manyshot as a "ranged attack".

 

[Camarath]

I'd certainly qualify Manyshot as a "ranged attack".

The feat states that it takes a standard action to use that feat thus it can not be use in place of a normal attack and thus can not be used in an Attack Action.

MANYSHOT [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a -4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special).

 

[Darklone]

Not to be annoying... Doc C: Many guys allow to use Manyshot and Shot on the Run. But by the rules it does not work. If you have problems to understand our reasoning by the rules, we will gladly explain them to you, but don't try to argue about the rules (at least not about the few rules which are clearly defined )

We love to argue about houserules in the other forum...