Shot on the Run, Manyshot and stuff :)

[Doc Century]

The feat states that it takes a standard action to use that feat thus it can not be use in place of a normal attack and thus can not be used in an Attack Action.

Well, I could be wrong (and I often am ), but it just seems to be a case of overanalyzing something, rather than applying common sense. I don't think, from a design standpoint, that combining Manyshot with Shot on the Run is overpowered or anything.

After all, with a normal melee attack, couldn't you also say "As a standard action, swing your weapon and roll to hit, applying all normal modifiers"?

It's really no big deal either way to me. I just don't see any big bugaboo in combining the two feats, if your character happens to have spent his slots on both of them.

Doc C

 

[Doc Century]

Not to be annoying... Doc C: Many guys allow to use Manyshot and Shot on the Run. But by the rules it does not work. If you have problems to understand our reasoning by the rules, we will gladly explain them to you, but don't try to argue about the rules (at least not about the few rules which are clearly defined )

We love to argue about houserules in the other forum...

Too true! I don't want to cause any unnecessary ruckus, and I like a good rules debate. I do see the opposing view, I just don't think it's clearly-defined, rules-wise.

Doc C

 

[Camarath]

Well, I could be wrong (and I often am ), but it just seems to be a case of overanalyzing something, rather than applying common sense. I don't think, from a design standpoint, that combining Manyshot with Shot on the Run is overpowered or anything.

The porblem with common sense is it never seems to be that common. What seems clear to one person may seems bizarre to another thus when reading that rules IMO it is better to be as strict as possible and then House Rule it to work as you want it to. I am not saying that allowing Manyshot and Shot on the Run to work together is overpowered. I am just saying that as written I do not believe the rules allow it. And that the assertion that all actions which allow attacks are Attack Actions has dangerous ramifications such as Spring Attack Charges or such. I would rather have a stict general rule which I can make specific exeptions to.

 

[billd91]

The feat states that it takes a standard action to use that feat thus it can not be use in place of a normal attack and thus can not be used in an Attack Action.

I don't think that's necessarily what the rule is implying. I think the specification in Manyshot that it's a standard action means that you're making muliple attacks, in effect, without requiring a Full-Round Action to do it and that it cannot be conducted as a Full-Attack option for your full attack rate. I don't think it's at all clear that it precludes anything else that modifies a standard action that is also an attack or that Manyshot itself isn't an attack action.

 

[Camarath]

I don't think that's necessarily what the rule is implying. I think the specification in Manyshot that it's a standard action means that you're making muliple attacks, in effect, without requiring a Full-Round Action to do it and that it cannot be conducted as a Full-Attack option for your full attack rate.

You only make one actual attack while using Manyshot.

I don't think it's at all clear that it precludes anything else that modifies a standard action that is also an attack or that Manyshot itself isn't an attack action.

I did not say that things that modify attacks can not be used to modify Manyshot. You perform an attack while using Manyshot but Manyshot can not be used in place of or "as a melee attack" as Disarm and Trip can. This means IMO that you can not replace your attack in the Attack Action with a Manyshot attack any more than you can replace all of your attacks with Manyshot attacks when taking a Full Attack Action because it requires an independent Manyshot Action (which is a Srandard Action) to use the feat.

 

[Darklone]

Too true! I don't want to cause any unnecessary ruckus, and I like a good rules debate. I do see the opposing view, I just don't think it's clearly-defined, rules-wise.

Doc C

By the rules, it's absolutely clear. Manyshot takes a standard action, Shot on the Run allows one attack action, standard actions may be attack actions but you cannot use attack actions to make a standard action.

Otherwise: Whirlwind attack could be used to cast one spell at each opponent around you. Kewl.

If it helps, the game designers themselves made absolutely clear that it was their intention that Shot on the Run and Manyshot can't be used together. If you think that games mechanics wise it's ok to allow it... go ahead.

Problems could IMHO only arise at higher levels by walking with a very high speed out of total cover, shooting a volley and heading back into full cover.

 

[Nifelhein]

I think it is clear, the Shot on the Run allows for an attack action, which is an option of standard actions, that is the same that Haste now states, an attack.

A standard action is much more vast,ie. Standard action is the genre and attack is a species of it.

Using both together would raise the distance of melee and ranged fighters even more, I don't think it is good, I don't think it is needed.

Ranged fighters are good enough as is.

Just my opinions though.

 

[Lab Monkey]

I don't think it gets any more official than this: http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45345

I wish the 2 feats worked together, but they simply do not. I hope that helps.

 

[Nifelhein]

I am actually failing to understand how a simple line saying they shouldn't is more convincing than hundreds of rule-wise and logical arguments...

want official? Ask the sage, that is the closer you will get, that post still is what Andy Collins states, unnoficial until WotC says it is not... sage has such possibility!

edit: Just wanted to make sure, this is not a flame, but a real doubt, since I am a non native speaker I mnay fail to make myself well understood.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

By the rules, it's absolutely clear. Manyshot takes a standard action, Shot on the Run allows one attack action, standard actions may be attack actions but you cannot use attack actions to make a standard action.

Actually, those rules are not quite so crystal clear - there are such statements as the attack action being a standard action, along with the clear fact that a character can roll to hit a target, then decide as to whether or not to do a full attack. If not, the single hit was a standard action, and they get a single move action.

Otherwise: Whirlwind attack could be used to cast one spell at each opponent around you. Kewl.

Very cool indeed - Any reason why a powerful artifact wouldn't let you do that with spell storing/release on impact type powers in it?

If it helps, the game designers themselves made absolutely clear that it was their intention that Shot on the Run and Manyshot can't be used together.

Here's the whole reason why I finally commented on this thread instead of just reading.

Where? Please, cite your sources on this. It'll help me out quite a bit

Problems could IMHO only arise at higher levels by walking with a very high speed out of total cover, shooting a volley and heading back into full cover.

Heh - and a high level character can't do that already? A fighter with 6 attacks and the right feats - seems like he could...




But just to clarify the discussion somewhat, the question is how does manyshot and shot on the run work together, and what the character(s) can do with it?

So

MANYSHOT [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a –4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special).
For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you may add one additional arrow to this attack, to a maximum of four arrows at a base attack bonus of +16. However, each arrow after the second adds a cumulative –2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total penalty of –6 for three arrows and –8 for four).
Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each arrow fired.
Special: Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage.
A fighter may select Manyshot as one of his fighter bonus feats.
A 6th-level ranger who has chosen the archery combat style is treated as having Manyshot even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.

and

SHOT ON THE RUN [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When using the attack action with a ranged weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed.
Special: A fighter may select Shot on the Run as one of his fighter bonus feats.

as well as

Standard Action: A standard action allows you to do something, most commonly make an attack or cast a spell. See Table: Actions in Combat for other standard actions.

Move Action: A move action allows you to move your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time. See Table: Actions in Combat.
You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action.

STANDARD ACTIONS
Attack
Making an attack is a standard action.

means this:

You can take a standard action to attack normally, or you can take a standard action to use the many shot feat, making up to 4 ranged attacks at the same target for the cost of that standard action.

Since you only get 1 standard action in a round, you can't do both the attack and the many shot feat.

You can, however, use the many shot feat and then move.

However, the 'attack action' is not what many shot is, it's a 'standard action'

You can see the difference more clearly when I ask this question:

Can I use the many shot feat as a standard action and then take a normal attack?

Or better yet, Can I count the many shot attack as my first attack, evaluate the results, and then finish my full round full attack action, counting it as my first attack?
Answer: No.

Shot on the run allows you to move before and after the 'attack' action, not before and after the 'standard action'. It's the same thing as Spring Attack - Can a fighter move, attack, move, and attack? I don't think so. Can he use a feat that says it's a standard action, then move, attack, move? I don't think so again.

Also, examine the Combat action Feint, and the feat Improved Feint.

Feint is normally a standard action (and does not allow an attack until (SRD "on or before your next turn," and Imp Feint turns it into a move action, allowing a 'feint' and an attack on the same turn.

What you are actually arguing is semantics. Just 'read', don't read 'into'.

My opinion

I'm really curious about those 'sources' quoted above though, please let me know what they are?