Sneak Attacks in the Rogue Class, WHY?

[rounser]

9) All games are easy to house rule; however, since D&D is "balanced" if you use what the core rules suggest, implementing house rules can cause unforseen effects.

I agree. The 3E rules have house rule repercussions more than former editions perhaps did. But arguably former editions lacked much game balance anyway, so the point is somewhat moot.

I was going to mention 3E being an exception to this one (you'll note a post I made earlier in this thread about the system's somewhat allergic reaction to houseruling compared to prior editions), along with an addendum to point (10) that 3E stat blocks have grown from prior editions to the extent that adventure preparation can take longer than it used to in statting out NPCs with feats, skills and other paraphernalia. This is counteracted somewhat by the CR system for monsters and traps, which takes some of the guesswork out of adventure creation, and creating characters for 3E is still somewhat faster than most skill systems (not that it is a pure skill system, more of a hybrid), so meh.

 

[SableWyvern]

Metheus.

I think that what you are talking about relates very much to campaign style over an intrinsic dictum in the rules.

Combat is far more prevalent in my current d&d campaign than it has been in any Rolemaster campaign I've run in the past 10-15 years. I'm loving the change.

But, while it is a combat-centric campaign, relative to what I have been running, the diabloesque effect you're talking about is not present.

Admitedly I am running at a lower-than-default power setting (although certainly far from low-magic).

Still, I have no doubts I could run at the default setting without the Diablo Effect. If the PCs have goals and personalities, and there is plenty of opportunity for interesting non-combat interaction and story development, there is no need for a 3e campaign to be a simple series of dungeon bashes interspersed with down time.

Having said all that, I can see how it might be easy for a campaign to become a dungeon-bash - I just don't think it's particularly hard to avoid if dungeon-bashing and magic item collecting are not what the DM and players want to focus on.

 

[Storm Raven]

Re: Yes

I agree with what simonski is saying for the most part. I also agree strongly with reapersaurus. After playing 3E for a little over a year, all I can say is that it feels exactly like Diablo and Baldur's Gate. While this may be the campaign, its also partially the 3E philosophy.

In my experience, it seems like this is entirely the fault of the DM and the players, and has little to do with the 3e system. How a particular campaign plays is almost entirely dependent upon the players, and almost entirely independent of the system used.

What most games become, unless everyone playing agrees, is running through a dungeon looking for items and gold to take back to town so you can look at the magic items shopping list. Magic items used to be somewhat rare, even in high level 1E and 2E campaigns. Now every mid level character has 5 pounds of magic baubles on them at any time.

I've played 3e since before the PHB came out (using the shadow PHB that was available based on guesses and prereleased information), and I have yet to see this happen in any 3e game I have participated in or witnessed. I think this is mostly tied to who is playing, and who is DMing, and has nothing to do with 3e.

 

[Storm Raven]

An Assassin in my eyes does NOT equal a Ninja, but maybe thats just me?

Your problem is that you are interpreting the Assassin prestige class presented in the DMG as a generic class meant to encompass people who are colloquially called assassins. It is not. It is a specific guild of Assassins based in Greyhawk. This specific guild teaches its members magic.

 

[Storm Raven]

Learning "a bit of magic" seems absurd, wouldnt it take ALOT of hard work and training to learn "the art". I see magic as something very special, something that few can learn.

Since the Bard class appears to be based on a comobination of the pre-Roman Celtic bard and the later mideavil wandering minstrel of folk tales, I find it entirely in keeping with the conecpt that they cast spells. Most Celtic bards of myth and legend were attributed with mystical powers, and many of the early Renaissance folk tales involve wandering minstrels and jongleurs using their magic to trick or beguile unwary people.

But isnt the Expert class alot worse than all the PC classes, Im not sure if I remember correctly but doesnt the Expert class get less skill points than the Rogue class?

Yes, but the Expert somewhat makes up for it by being able to choose his own skill list. In any event, it seems to me that for the campaign style you are looking for, using the NPC classes as PC classes is probably a decent idea. A party of Adepts, Experts, Warriors and Aristocrats is probably just what you are looking for.

 

[Doc_Klueless]

Re: Yes

Magic items used to be somewhat rare, even in high level 1E and 2E campaigns. Now every mid level character has 5 pounds of magic baubles on them at any time.

Magic items were many things, but they were never rare in "generic" 1e and 2e. A quick browse of the modules produced will spoil this idea. When there are magic wands hidden in woodpiles and magic shields being used as giant's bowls, magic isn't rare.

Now, I will agree that many of the campaigns I ran were magic item rare, but only because I ignored the treasure listed in modules or made my own adventures.

 

[Metheus]

Yeah, Ihardly ever played pre-published adventures in any of the editions, those are always treasure-heavy. But access to magic items was much more restricted than in 3E. Not everyone was making them, and there werent rules about how many you could find in any given town, or enclaves like the Red Wizards setting up magic shops. Even if a guild or two here and there was selling trinkets, it wasnt the same as 3E's 'ask the barkeep for a potion of speed and some boots of jumping' mentality.

 

[Garmorn]

This thread is frighting.

Man the amount of THE ONE TRUE WAY being exibited in this thread scares me. First we have one group saying that low power is the way and trying to limite magic to a few classes and almost do away with magic items all together, a second group saying that chaning in of the core classes or the level of magic is silly and should not be done. We get statements say that the standard levels of magic only support CRG style gaming while the opposition points out that my most 1 and 2e standard the average party is short of magic items and playing with any less is to play something that is not D&D.

The only good thing about this thread is that there are people trying to disscuse the difficuties of making changes to the baseline or giving suggestions for other d20 settings that might be more along the lines of what the orginal poster seems to want.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Yeah, Ihardly ever played pre-published adventures in any of the editions, those are always treasure-heavy. But access to magic items was much more restricted than in 3E. Not everyone was making them, and there werent rules about how many you could find in any given town, or enclaves like the Red Wizards setting up magic shops. Even if a guild or two here and there was selling trinkets, it wasnt the same as 3E's 'ask the barkeep for a potion of speed and some boots of jumping' mentality.

I don't get that mentality at all. I run a campaign and other than scroll and potion makers there are no magic shops selling vorpal swords and stuff like that. I think it's more a case of people playing in games with weak DM's more than a flaw in 3e. If your DM runs it like Diablo then it's going to be like Diablo. I run a campaign with a lot of dungeon crawling, but it's not a Diablo session. It's 1e feel. Lots of ancient temples and tombs briming with evil and treasure. Adventure awaits!

 

[Bastoche]

It's not the rules that makes the game, it's the players and the DM.

But my opinion is on the side of those saying that reducing the amount of magic item screws the balance, but it doesn't mean you have to fall in the diablo/BG category either. And it is possible to fixe the rules for a non-magic campaign. I did and it works great with high level fighters and a monk among the players.