Sneaky Mage: Party Role and Optimization

[moritheil]

OK, I have a Beguiler 5 for a campaign that is supposed to be beyond our level. In short, there is a real threat of us being massacred. How can I make it shine?

Pros:
- Able to move around like a rogue (sneak, tumble, etc.)
- Able to cast a lot of illusions
- Able to operate independently
- Survivable AC
- Full caster level

Cons:
- Low hit points
- Unable to do any real damage
- Less useful against anything that isn't living

My basic idea was to make a battlefield control/scout character that sneaks around, pops off an occasional spell, and disrupts enemy plans. However, having accomplished that, questioned whether it's worth it to have a character that does nothing BUT battlefield control.

I am under some significant constraints: I must have an item worth over 20,000 gp (out of 24,000 gp total.) I cannot have more than three classes, total (two for now and one PrC later is how I intend to split them.) My DM granted Spellthief Sleight of Hand since all of us agree that it is silly that it does not have the skill in its list.

My questions are:
1. Should I ditch the melee and go for ranged combat? I could instead field a paralyzing bow for that 20,000 gp.
2. Is my stat array suboptimal? I suspect it is, but don't know what to change.
3. What are your thoughts on Whisper Gnome vs. Gnome?

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[szilard]

Have you considered a Beguiler?

-Stuart

 

[moritheil]

Have you considered a Beguiler?

-Stuart

Yes, but it doesn't help me deal more damage, which is essentially my one glaring weakness. I can accept low hit points and certain other things in a caster.

Ideally, I would like to add damage-dealing capabilities while retaining stealth, independent capacity, and ability to shut down enemy buffs.

 

[szilard]

Yes, but it doesn't help me deal more damage, which is essentially my one glaring weakness. I can accept low hit points and certain other things in a caster.

Splitting yourself between two spellcasting classes is going to be suboptimal. The Beguiler is probably the closest thing to what you seem to be looking for.

Do you expect to be in melee a lot?

If you want sneak attack, a level of rogue and some Unseen Seer levels could work well for a Beguiler... particularly with its bonus to feinting.

I'm also growing increasingly fond of the Beguiler spell list. It is really great for filling that 'controller' role without doing huge gobs of direct damage (while still having some effects that are functionally nearly equivalent to huge gobs of direct damage).

-Stuart

 

[szilard]

I guess my point was that a Beguiler has all of these:

Pros:
- Able to move around like a rogue (sneak, tumble, etc.)
- Able to cast a lot of illusions
- Able to operate independently
- Survivable AC
- Full caster level

(without using a feat for Master Spellthief)

and, with respect to your Cons:

- Low hit points
Beguiler is better off than a Spellthief/Illusionist

- Unable to do any real damage
About the same (depending on Illusionist spell choices)

- Only 1d6 SA
Spellthief has the advantage here.

- Not very useful against anything that isn't living
Many illusion spells work.

- Lacks higher level spells
Not a problem for a beguiler.

- Terribly low save DCs
Definitely not a problem for a Beguiler.



-Stuart

 

[moritheil]

Splitting yourself between two spellcasting classes is going to be suboptimal. The Beguiler is probably the closest thing to what you seem to be looking for.

Well, I don't really consider Spellthief a spellcasting class so much as a rogue class specifically tailored to be anti-caster. Wiz/Rogue generally comes out OK, so broadly speaking, my expectation was that it should be possible to make Spellthief/Wiz work. You're right in that Beguiler suffers a little less from MAD.

Do you expect to be in melee a lot?

I'm honestly not sure. The tumble is there so I have control over how often I am in melee. If I were to go for a ranged build, I'd use it to escape melee. I could also dump Strength and put more points into Dex or something . . .

If you want sneak attack, a level of rogue and some Unseen Seer levels could work well for a Beguiler... particularly with its bonus to feinting.

I am not familiar with Unseen Seer, but remember that the number of total classes and multiclassing in general is an issue in this campaign. In that respect the straight Beguiler is attractive.

I'm also growing increasingly fond of the Beguiler spell list. It is really great for filling that 'controller' role without doing huge gobs of direct damage (while still having some effects that are functionally nearly equivalent to huge gobs of direct damage).

-Stuart

I'm not sure what spells are functionally equivalent to gobs of damage. Obviously blinding color surge is very nice, and color spray is still potent at level 5, but the beguiler spell list has always struck me as 80% useless and 20% real gems.

By the way, thanks for your input. I list my objections because I suspect that occasionally something will pop up that I have not accounted for, and then you can show me why I'm wrong

 

[Shayuri]

Heya Mori! Welcome back, by the way.

It's a thorny problem, not the least of which because I think your goals are...well, a little unfocused. Do you want to do damage, or be roguey, or have great illusions? I think two out of three is easy enough...all three is tricky.

That said, I've played Beguilers at low to high levels, and they're not bad. The spell list is actually really good, but takes getting used to.

For damage, look at the Whelm series. It's nonlethal damage, but that's actually GOOD in many cases. It puts baddies down just as fast (usually), and leaves 'em alive for questioning. Also, collateral damage is a nonissue. And no pesky big blast of flame to alert folks. The downside is that it's mind effecting. But really, that's not any worse than sneak attack...and the Whelm spells will do more damage than your character's SA would.

Beguilers also have better DC's, by focusing on an important stat (Int) and giving bonuses from Cloaked Casting. With gnome bonus and using the feat you have for Master Spellthief on Spell Focus: Illusion, and your opening DC's will be 16 for a 1st level spell, and that's withOUT Cloaked Casting. A DC 17 Color Spray can put a serious dent in non-Will focused foes, even over CR5.

The Beguiler spell list also features staples like Mage Armor, Glitterdust, various useful divinations that spontaneous casters often have to neglect, and to top it off, they have Use Magic Device as a class skill, meaning you'll be using wands to gain access to any spell you want later on.

I haven't played Spellthieves much, so I can't -compare- them, but for what you're looking at, I really suggest giving the Beguiler a second look.

 

[szilard]

I'm not sure what spells are functionally equivalent to gobs of damage. Obviously blinding color surge is very nice, and color spray is still potent at level 5, but the beguiler spell list has always struck me as 80% useless and 20% real gems.

By spells that are functionally equivalent to huge gobs of damage, I mean spells that effectively either take an enemy out of the fight or sufficiently weaken it so that it can be easily taken out by an ally. For Beguilers, these include: Color Spray, Sleep, Blinding Color Surge (works on undead), Vertigo, Hold Person, Inevitable Defeat, Confusion, Rainbow Pattern, Dominate Person, Feeblemind, Hold Monster, Incite Riot, Overwhelm...

Not to mention that almost every Beguiler will pick up Shadow Conjuration and/or Shadow Evocation.

The Beguiler spell list is cool. There are a number of things on it that aren't generally useful but come in handy when you really need them (including a number of immediate action spells) - and since you spontaneously cast from the entire list, it works out pretty well. Also, with the large number of area-denial spells that Beguilers have, they can nearly always contribute to a fight (or get away from one - their spell list also has a lot of mobility and stealth spells on it...)

-Stuart

 

[szilard]

Also, Unseen Seer is in Complete Mage. Among other things, it offers full spellcasting progression and some sneak attack progression (yet somehow avoids being too much like Arcane Trickster).

-Stuart

 

[moritheil]

Heya Mori! Welcome back, by the way.

It's a thorny problem, not the least of which because I think your goals are...well, a little unfocused. Do you want to do damage, or be roguey, or have great illusions? I think two out of three is easy enough...all three is tricky.

Thanks! I think the low CL really works against me. I can build a character to fulfill three roles at level 15; at level 5, not so much. Damage is my last priority; I don't have to excel, but I'd like to have enough to be a credible contributor. Is this just my discomfort at running an essentially damage-free mage manifesting itself, or do I have a point with the expectation that I ought to be able to dish out some damage?

That said, I've played Beguilers at low to high levels, and they're not bad. The spell list is actually really good, but takes getting used to.

For damage, look at the Whelm series. It's nonlethal damage, but that's actually GOOD in many cases. It puts baddies down just as fast (usually), and leaves 'em alive for questioning. Also, collateral damage is a nonissue. And no pesky big blast of flame to alert folks. The downside is that it's mind effecting. But really, that's not any worse than sneak attack...and the Whelm spells will do more damage than your character's SA would.

IIRC the Whelm spells get decent at spell level 3 and above - you're right that I should take a closer look.

Beguilers also have better DC's, by focusing on an important stat (Int) and giving bonuses from Cloaked Casting. With gnome bonus and using the feat you have for Master Spellthief on Spell Focus: Illusion, and your opening DC's will be 16 for a 1st level spell, and that's withOUT Cloaked Casting. A DC 17 Color Spray can put a serious dent in non-Will focused foes, even over CR5.

The Beguiler spell list also features staples like Mage Armor, Glitterdust, various useful divinations that spontaneous casters often have to neglect, and to top it off, they have Use Magic Device as a class skill, meaning you'll be using wands to gain access to any spell you want later on.

I haven't played Spellthieves much, so I can't -compare- them, but for what you're looking at, I really suggest giving the Beguiler a second look.

I suppose I could run a Beguiler and just throw a lot of Dispel Magics at enemy casters. It would achieve a similar effect.