D&D 5E So Was That Z Fellow right?

[smbakeresq]

Duellingis not +2 damage per attack, unless your hit chance is 100% (which I think the rules don't permit).

Of course it isn't, but then no GWM feat analysis includes the times they do not use the feat, as it isn't used all the time. That's not the idea trying to convey at all, which I guess you missed by your comment.

 

[Hussar]

Just so I'm clear here. We're saying that a +3 or +4 on DPR is broken? After spending FOUR feats (well, 2 ASI's and 2 Feats) and 10 levels? That's your definition of broken?

Shouldn't two feats be worth +4 DPR? How much should two feats be worth?

 

[FrogReaver]

Just so I'm clear here. We're saying that a +3 or +4 on DPR is broken? After spending FOUR feats (well, 2 ASI's and 2 Feats) and 10 levels? That's your definition of broken?

Shouldn't two feats be worth +4 DPR? How much should two feats be worth?

Unless I've forgotten, I think the conclusion was that precision attack was equivalent to adding that 3-4 DPR per attack when using sharpshooter against a 20 AC opponent. This didn't account for what if any effect sharpshooter was adding without precision attack. It also didn't account for the effect of crossbow expertise's bonus action attack.

Also, I'm curious how much DPR you think is typical?

A level 10 Battlemaster longbow archer will do about 15 DPR against a 20 AC target using the 1d8 damage dice maneuvers with 24 combat rounds and 2 short rests in the day. (Action surge not included)

A level 10 Battlemaster CE SS archer will do 27.75 DPR against a 20 AC target using precision attack. (Action surge not included).

The DPR difference in the builds is 27.75 - 15 = 12.75 which comes out to the CE SS doing 85% more damage than the fighter that takes neither feat.


Just for fun, the best case DPR against that 20 AC enemy that you can hope to achieve if you leave out just one of the feats is 19.5 by leaving out crossbow expertise. (It would be 19.125 if you left out sharpshooter and took crossbow expertise). That's only maybe +4.5 DPR compared to the guy that didn't take the feat. Speaking of +4.5 DPR is still about a 30% DPR increase.

I'll be honest. I really shouldn't have to explain these basic things again and again. Ya'll really should try to think before you open your mouth and post a quick and hasty reply that just shows ignorance.

 

[Parmandur]

Unless I've forgotten, I think the conclusion was that precision attack was equivalent to adding that 3-4 DPR per attack when using sharpshooter against a 20 AC opponent. This didn't account for what if any effect sharpshooter was adding without precision attack. It also didn't account for the effect of crossbow expertise's bonus action attack.

Also, I'm curious how much DPR you think is typical?

A level 10 Battlemaster longbow archer will do about 15 DPR against a 20 AC target using the 1d8 damage dice maneuvers with 24 combat rounds in the day. (Action surge not included)

A level 10 Battlemaster CE SS archer will do 27.75 DPR against a 20 AC target using precision attack. (Action surge not included).

The DPR difference in the builds is 27.75 - 15 = 12.75 which comes out to the CE SS doing 85% more damage than the fighter that takes neither feat.


Just for fun, the best case DPR against that 20 AC enemy that you can hope to achieve if you leave out just one of the feats is 19.5 by leaving out crossbow expertise. (It would be 19.125 if you left out sharpshooter and took crossbow expertise). That's only maybe +4.5 DPR compared to the guy that didn't take the feat. Speaking of +4.5 DPR is still about a 30% DPR increase.

I'll be honest. I really shouldn't have to explain these basic things again and again. Ya'll really should try to think before you open your mouth and post a quick and hasty reply that just shows ignorance.

It is rather telling that the conclusions are not obvious to game literate forum goers...let alone most of the people who play the game. The Beyond stats on spell choices are fascinating...

 

[Hussar]

Ok, fair enough. It took 2 feats to gain +12 damage. Whoopee. How much do you think 2 feats should be worth? Percentages are pretty and all, but, at the end of the day, it's an extra 10 (ish) damage. That breaks your game?

 

[FrogReaver]

It is rather telling that the conclusions are not obvious to game literate forum goers...let alone most of the people who play the game. The Beyond stats on spell choices are fascinating...

It's fine and good... actually it's great that most d&d players don't optimize to the degree required with the SS CE Precision attack battlemaster fighter. If they cared to optimize like that then you would rarely see anything but these and Polearm Master GWM Bear Totem Barbarians in the game. Well, you would want a cleric or druid to heal them up and provide moderate support I guess.

 

[FrogReaver]

Ok, fair enough. It took 2 feats to gain +12 damage. Whoopee. How much do you think 2 feats should be worth? Percentages are pretty and all, but, at the end of the day, it's an extra 10 (ish) damage. That breaks your game?

Ummmm, he's doing the damage of nearly 2 normal characters that aren't optimizing for damage.

Your perspective is seriously flawed if you think +12 additional DPR in 5e D&D isn't a big deal at level 10.

 

[Parmandur]

Ummmm, he's doing the damage of nearly 2 normal characters that aren't optimizing for damage.

Your perspective is seriously flawed if you think +12 additional DPR in 5e D&D isn't a big deal at level 10.

It is an advantage, surely: but is it within operational parameters given the opportunity cost?

 

[FrogReaver]

It is an advantage, surely: but is it within operational parameters given the opportunity cost?

We do have a defacto baseline. An ASI should give about 20% more DPR. 2 ASI's should give about 45% more DPR. In the case I am examining we have 2 ASI's giving +85% more DPR while also removing cover penalties and melee firing penalties and increasing range.

As for opportunity cost, you could take any other 2 feats or stat bumps. What would be the two you think are the best here?

 

[Hussar]

Again, he had to burn two feats. Yup, he's dealing more damage, but, so what? The other guy has two feats to be able to do other stuff. So what? Great he's dealing another 12 damage per round. Can't do anything else. So much for the whole "fighters can do out of combat stuff with their bonus feats". That's out of the window. Not doing that until 12th.

Never minding the bonuses that other classes have accrued by this point. Yeah, +12 DPR is totally dominating when you've got casters with 5th level spells by this point.