D&D 5E Solving the problem of initiative.

[Grazzt]

One of the most interesting that I've seen is the HackMaster 5th Edition system, which uses a "count up" system. There is no round - time is measured in seconds, and actions you decide to take use up so many seconds. Swing a sword? You can do that once every 10 seconds. Swing a two-handed sword? You can do that once every 18 seconds. Etc., etc. You can move 5 feet in one second, but then you can jog 10 feet the next second, and then break into a run on the third second. It's pretty intuitive BUT it's a huge pain for the GM I've found and almost totally reliant on a grid & miniatures.

Aces & Eights (also by Kenzer) uses this system. Each combatant rolls initiative. Modified by speed. Lower is better because the gamemaster starts the "count up" and when your count is reached, you can start to act. Say you roll and after modifying for Speed your count is 3. When the count reaches 3 you act. If you have your gun drawn, you can fire (1 count). If you have to draw your gun, it's like 5 counts, so you next act on 8. At 8 count, you can fire from hip or bring gun to bear and aim (like 4 counts). So at count 12, you're aiming and can fire. Cocking the hammer and firing again is like 3 or 4 counts, so you can fire again on count 15 or 16. Meanwhile, the other guy(s) are acting on their counts.

It works well with a very small number of guys fighting. Otherwise it gets to be a bit much when there's a lot of combatants.

 

[Lanliss]

Ok, here is my first shot at my version of the time system.

Standard Action (hide, search, dodge, etc.) = 3
Bonus action = 2
Melee attack action = 3
Ranged attack action = 5
Spell = 1+spell level
Reaction = 1
Movement = 1 per 5 feet of movement

So, you can take the attack action and a bonus action, giving you a total of 5, or just use the attack action.

If someone has 4 points, and you only take the attack action, you can make two attack actions before it becomes their turn.

Thoughts?

Edited to add movement cost.

 

[fjw70]

Just brainstorming but you could have everyone write down in secret what they are doing that round and everyone goes simulateously. It would be tough for the DM with multiple monsters.

Personally I am fine with the official system.

 

[Alatar]

I guess I did. One of the pitfalls of playing every edition of D&D is the older stuff gets dragged into the newer rules by accident.

The same thing has happened to us. Our 3.5 to 4 transition featured a lot of that. I imagine going from 3.5 to 5 could get comical. Actually, I watched that on a youtube 'actual play' series, where the DM was the only one with any semblance of rules knowledge, his was two editions out of date, and the 9 page combat chapter was apparently a bridge too far. I found the viewing occasionally quite challenging to my serenity (nerd rage!), but probably good for me.

And if I'm reading this thread correctly, there are people who are still rolling Initiative every round, like good old AD&D, and at the same time they are complaining that the Initiative rolls are breaking the narrative flow, to which I cannot imagine a constructive reply.

So far, it hasn't caused any problems. Usually the delay occurs in the first round when everyone wants to determine their own party sequence. There hasn't been many, if any, delays in later rounds.

Hey, I'm all for it. Delay was a minor gambit that I used to employ aggressively, and I miss it. But not enough to argue for it's return, I guess. The optional rules in the DMG concerning Initiative seem to go the other way, attempting to foil players' efforts to figure order of play into their tactical schemes, so I guess there exists a sentiment that doing so is metagaming. I can see the argument, but to me it's just situation awareness at play. It is still a game, I think, and I like to play harder than some people do.

 

[dropbear8mybaby]

Something that might help the OP is remember that all of the action IS happening simultaneously.

I know, it just causes a lot interruption to the suspension of disbelief. Like flying characters who essentially hover, even though technically they're not hovering. Or enemy groups all being able to focus-fire one target simultaneously, etc. It's just one of those things that is starting to wear on me the more I play and run games. I'm currently running two games on alternate weeks and playing intermittently in a third. By the end of those two campaigns, I want to do something a bit different with some house rules, so working towards determining what that might be now.

 

[Sunseeker]

I'm pretty sure he want's both.

If he wasn't opposed to rolling every round, using a system similar to AD&D would be great. Everyone determines their actions, then rolls for initiative, resolving in order. It sometimes caused impossible actions, but the trick was to allow for vague actions (such as not determining targets of attacks, and assuming movement as necessary). Spells & effects should reference the end of rounds, rather than turns, to keep them more evenly useful (if slightly more powerful, since 1 round is from when cast to the end of the next round). It allowed for very integrated rounds, keeping the delay between turns to a minimum. It's not for everyone though.

Something that might help the OP is remember that all of the action IS happening simultaneously. It's just broken down into the Turn system for ease of play. As a DM, I try to make sure that my descriptions incorporate this as much as possible.

Emphasis mine. Turns are a game construct that exists because it is a game. Joe goes before Sue because the DM can only respond to one of them at a time.

 

[dave2008]

Can it even be solved?

Specifically I'm talking about the "STOP!", wait for a beat, "Hammer time!" phenomena that initiative turns create. I understand why it's this way, but lately I've been wracking my tiny brain for ways to make it better. Rolling initiative every turn is so tedious and time consuming. Rolling group initiative doesn't work either. Side initiative seems to take the worst aspects of every system and combine them together. I'm genuinely at a loss as to what could be done to improve the situation. I'm even willing to entertain changing the nature of initiative itself to an entirely new sub-system.

About the only thing that's I've felt wasn't too bad was limiting everyone to only one thing per turn instead of action + move + bonus action + item interaction. Even that has issues though. The other thing I've thought of is opposed initiative. That being you only roll when you look to oppose someone else or if you're opposed in some way. So you want to sneak away during a fight? OK, done. But if someone is hunting for you in the melee while you're trying to sneak away? Now it's a contest between two opposed entities.

I don't know, it's all very mathy and complex and hurting my brain. Anyone else got any better ideas?

Hackmaster has a different initiative system you might like. I goes something like this:

1) Everyone declares what they want to do. X = shoot arrow (speed 4), Y = swing sword (speed 3), Z=run run 50' (speed 1 per 10')

2) Z runs 30' (speed 3) and then Y swings its sword (speed 3)
3) X shoots the arrow (speed 4), Z runs another 10' (speed 3+1)
4) Z finishes the run (speed 3+2)

I don't know how that would mesh with the D&D action economy, but I always thought I would like to trying it with D&D

 

[Lanliss]

Hackmaster has a different initiative system you might like. I goes something like this:

1) Everyone declares what they want to do. X = shoot arrow (speed 4), Y = swing sword (speed 3), Z=run run 50' (speed 1 per 10')

2) Z runs 30' (speed 3) and then Y swings its sword (speed 3)
3) X shoots the arrow (speed 4), Z runs another 10' (speed 3+1)
4) Z finishes the run (speed 3+2)

I don't know how that would mesh with the D&D action economy, but I always thought I would like to trying it with D&D

That is exactly what I wrote a few posts above. Though it reminds me, I need to add movement cost.

 

[dave2008]

Ok, here is my first shot at my version of the time system.

Standard Action (hide, search, dodge, etc.) = 3
Bonus action = 2
Melee attack action = 3
Ranged attack action = 5
Spell = 1+spell level
Reaction = 1
Movement = 1 per 5 feet of movement

So, you can take the attack action and a bonus action, giving you a total of 5, or just use the attack action.

If someone has 4 points, and you only take the attack action, you can make two attack actions before it becomes their turn.

Thoughts?

Edited to add movement cost.

I like it, fairly simple and I think it would he keep everyone involved. One question, how would you add in legendary actions? As a reaction or bonus action or 1 per action cost?

 

[dave2008]

That is exactly what I wrote a few posts above. Though it reminds me, I need to add movement cost.

Sorry I missed that