Some questions from actual play

[Boarstorm]

What should they call it then? Whether you roll dice or not, whenever you cause damage you add up every applicable bonus.

False. There are damage rolls, which benefit from bonuses, and flat damage, which does not. Following this logic, you'll soon be adding sneak attack damage and whatnot to ongoing damage.

I don't see anything that says that enhancement bonuses, racial bonuses, class bonuses or unnamed bonuses are only to be included when calculating damage under certain circumstances.

There are several quotes in this thread already reprinting the relevant rules. Each bonus states quite clearly that it adds to damage ROLLS.

 

[keterys]

And saying that you shouldn't be a certain class or use certain powers just because your stats don't conform to the standard member of that class is a pretty bad way to design a game.

That would be your opinion, and I'd contend a poor one. A fighter with no strength or a wizard with no intelligence is crippled, and the game directly tells you that. Pick a different class.

I think the designers are smarter than that. I think they would explicitly mention when a power contradicts how the core rules works, instead of let people guess whether the word "roll" is supposed to matter or not.

The core rules are clear. You just don't like them.

 

[Andur]

Umm Boar, sorry if you are mathematically challenged, but 0[W] is a roll, like it or not.

I roll 1d8 multiply the result by 0 and then add modifiers, it is a mathematically sound calculation. And in 4e shorthand the expression would be +(Ability) modifier damage.

Like I stated above though, it makes literally zero difference with minions (1 point or 100 points they die) and is a slight PC favour for anything else. Since the "purpose" of effects like Cleave is to drop minions, there really is no difference.

As far as making sense, if you cleave with a Flaming Weapon which you have activated as a free action, what type of damage does the creature hit with Cleave take? If the answer is Fire, then the enhancement bonus from the weapon also needs to be accounted. To top it off, you can also activate the Daily power of the Flaming weapon on the Cleave hit and then are making a "real" damage roll so then you would have to put all the bonuses you left out initially into the damage.

End of the day, you play the game in which makes it fun. About the most I can see getting from adding the modifiers to the Cleave damage is only 30 points anyway without throwing any other powers into the mix. (Like activating a Weapon's Daily as a Free Action)

 

[keterys]

Changing it from, say, 8 pts at high level to include +6 (enhancement) + 9 (power attack) + 3 (weapon focus) + (any bonuses from powers or allies) is a vast balance difference and... for what? Cause it makes more sense to you?

 

[Spatula]

Umm Boar, sorry if you are mathematically challenged, but 0[W] is a roll, like it or not.

/facepalm

Nothing in the game does 0[w] damage.

The extra damage from cleave is not a "hit" so you can't activate effects like from a flaming weapon on the cleave target.

The rules are perfectly clear. You add weapon-dependant bonuses to weapon damage rolls, which is anything that has [w] in it. You don't add them to something that just does (ability score mod) damage. And if something does 1/2 damage, you're still rolling damage.

Now the question of whether the cleave damage is typed if the weapon is, is an interesting one. The rest is just nonsense.

 

[Deverash]

The rules do state, however, that any damage that's listed as a static value does not get the benefit of any modifiers from powers to it, unless specifically allowed to modified static damage. You could certainly make a case that that would apply to feats, etc as well, but there doesn't seem to be anything in the feat section that extends it to them.

 

[Vempyre]

Cleave is not 0[W]. 0[W] doesn't even exist anywhere in the book. Reread the entry. It's Str damage.

The rules are clear and simple, why do ppl try to add stuff (extrapolate) to the rules that aren't there?? I have seen that in multiple posts lately. It says Cleave does Str dmg. So ... it does ... Str damage. Nothing more nothing less. How much clearer could that be?

It's no use to try adding imaginary text where there isn't any. If you try to do that to every feat and power which text isn't 10 pages long to cover all your imaginary "maybes" you are certainly gonna get confused alright.

Just use the rule as written and do not extrapolate needlessly.

 

[Boarstorm]

Umm Boar, sorry if you are mathematically challenged, but 0[W] is a roll, like it or not.

I roll 1d8 multiply the result by 0 and then add modifiers, it is a mathematically sound calculation. And in 4e shorthand the expression would be +(Ability) modifier damage.

Umm, Andur, no it's not.

See, 2[W] is not 2*W. It's roll 2 Ws. Rolling ZERO Ws means not rolling anything at all.

It's not a matter of mathematics at all. It's a matter of DEFINITION.

 

[Xyl]

There is a rule that says you add the damage bonuses from feats etc. to damage rolls. It's not part of the [W] and it's not part of the +Str, it's a separate bonus.

There is no rule that says you add the damage bonuses from feats etc. to damage that isn't rolled (such as the damage from Cleave).

Now, you could say that you should add it anyways, because there's no rule that says you shouldn't. There's also no rule that says you shouldn't add 100 to every damage rule. Does that mean I can add 100 to all my damage rolls?

In short: You don't add feat bonuses to unrolled damage. Stop trying to bend the rules into a pretzel.

 

[Andur]

Spatula, of course there are 0[W] powers in there, they simply adhere to shorthand convention and don't include values which result in 0.

As far as cleave,

Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and an enemy adjacent to you takes damage equal to your Strength modifier.

Notice it says HIT, you then have two targets, you can choose either target to apply the flaming weapon daily, since you HIT.

Also using your "strict" roll interpations, from the PHB on Critical Hits:

Maximum Damage: Rather than roll damage, determine the maximum damage you can roll with your attack. This is your critical damage. (Attacks that don’t deal damage still don’t deal damage on a critical hit.)

So you don't make a damage roll do you? Yet you still add all modifiers into the damage calculation.

Ongoing damage is quite well covered in its rules, and with the rare exception is a fixed number regardless of abilities.

In summary, I play at your table, and you rule Str only to Cleave, no biggie, you play at my table and I rule Str + mods to Cleave, no biggie.