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D&D 5E Spells: the Good, the Bad, and the Downright Orcish Grandmother

Mercurius

Legend
I haven't read the thread, so forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but when I look at the phrase "Orcish Grandmother" at first I think "Orc Grandmother" but then I realize that the more accurate interpretation is "Human Grandmother with Orc-like traits." I find the latter a more disturbing image.
 

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Haven't seen Hex mentioned here, it's a pretty great spell.
Reasons why:
-No save, no to hit roll.
-Casting time is one bonus action
-Disadvantage on ability checks related to one ability...somewhat useful.
-Extra D6 Necrotic damage whenever you hit with an attack.
-Concentration, up to one hour.
-If your target dies, you can move the hex to another target.

I'd say that's pretty fantastic, especially if your party has a way to force ability checks. First time this spell was used at the table (first time playing 5E) this was misinterpreted to include attack rolls (It's a strength ability check, right?) which was pretty OP, considering the lack of attack roll or saving throw against this spell, but even used properly it's pretty useful.
 

Runny

First Post
Cough, fireball, cough, cough.

It's always been my favorite spell, but holey moley it is a doozy in 5e. It makes me so happy, especially after it basically took 4e off.

Also, Bless is, pound for pound, the best concentration spell in the game. With the right party (sharpshooters and great weapon masters), it is always a better use of the cleric's concentration than the alternatives.
 


Chocolategravy

First Post
At 5th level, I'm a wizard. I don't care too much about a single spell slot. I do care if I have to lay down a bunch of repetitive boring (since level one) cantrips spells to help take out a lieutenant. I also don't want to cast more than 1 or 2 non-cantrip spells out of my repertoire to help take down a lieutenant. I'm stingy that way.
There are several better non-cantrip spells. People are using cantrips as an example because they're ALSO better and don't even use up a slot.
Is Witch Bolt a DPR king? Nope. There are spells that do more damage.
Those spells not only do more damage but are better in every way.
The neat thing about the spell is that it is auto-damage. I can fire and forget. I don't care if the lieutenant decides to ignore the 5th level Rogue who often does 18 to 28 points of damage in a single round to focus on my wizard who is doing a paltry 6.5 points. If he does decide to do that, great. He's making a tactical error and that spreads damage around the party. I'm ok if he OAs or disengages, just in order to get away from my spell. That's either good damage or good action economy as well.
Yes, as you say, you are doing so little damage that breaking off to attack you is a tactical error.
All of the cantrips can do zero damage in a round. So can this spell in round one. But if the player makes a single D20 roll, he's in the zone with this spell. Do you know how boring it is to do NOTHING for multiple rounds in a fight, recasting the same old boring cantrips over and over and over again?
You've pretty much lost everyone here by saying running around casting different cantrips at various ranges at different targets while also keeping a second concentration spell up is somehow boring while standing there round after round using Witch Bolt on the same target and hoping it doesn't step out of range for a second or run behind an object or just die early is somehow fun.
Blah. This spell allows the wizard to contribute every single round in a fight and he does it in more than one way. Yup, the wizard is only doing 25% to 35% of the damage that the Rogue is doing. But, that's ok. It's better than doing 0% that someone who misses a lot does. The wizard does not have to be a striker.
Wizards can do plenty of damage, so what you're saying is that it's okay to take horrible spells even though better ones are available. Sure. But that is really what your argument is, that you like the spell and that is why you want to cast it, despite it being horrible.
In 4E vernacular, this is a minor control spell.
No, it isn't. Ray of Frost with it's slow effect is a minor control spell. Chill Touch with it's no heal is a minor debuff spell. Witch Bolt is a disadvantage the caster spell with the penalty of costing concentration and limiting the caster's movement! You are literally CCing yourself for the enemy.
It does damage every single round and encourages the enemy to either OA, or disengage, or ignore larger threats and attack the wizard.
Doing the LEAST amount of damage in a party DISCOURAGES enemies from attacking you. Something like Ray of Frost's slow might annoy something enough to want to deal with the wizard, but the wizard doing ineffectual damage sure won't.
At the end of this fight, sure, the wizard did a bit less damage than if he had been casting other spells. But he did it using up very few spell slots and worse case, the NPC lasted for a single extra round.
Again, could have used Ray of Frost and used NO slots AND provided some CC, *or* used Sleep or Burning Hands and been far more effective.
You don't like this spell because you focus solely on DPR.
We don't like the spell because it has bad range, uses concentration, does slow damage, ends when the target dies, ends when the target runs past an object or out of range for a second, CC's the caster by restricting their range of movement AND despite all those drawbacks which SHOULD mean the spell gets a DPR boost, it instead has bad DPR. We get it, you like the spell, keep using it. It has FAR too many drawbacks and no positives given it's bad DPR for me to load.
 

Thank Dog

Banned
Banned
I don't care too much about a single spell slot.
You've previously said that a 1st-level spell slot is a big deal and now you're saying it isn't.

I do care if I have to lay down a bunch of repetitive boring (since level one) cantrips spells to help take out a lieutenant.
So you'd rather cast a spell where you make almost no decisions at all other than to stay within range of the target? You don't even roll an attack. Just damage. How is that not less boring than using a cantrip?

I don't care if the lieutenant decides to ignore the 5th level Rogue who often does 18 to 28 points of damage in a single round to focus on my wizard who is doing a paltry 6.5 points.
Or, you know, he orders one of his lackeys to take out the annoying mosquito that keeps biting him every round.

But he did it using up very few spell slots and worse case, the NPC lasted for a single extra round.
Worst case? I think you're being a bit blinkered here. Wizards have fight-ending 1st-level spells that they could use instead of Witch Bolt.

You don't like this spell because you focus solely on DPR.
No, I don't like it because it's really, really, really bad in comparison to every other choice. Not just a little bit worse, but a whole, heaping, hell of a lot worse.

Although, why I'm still having this discussion with you is beyond my comprehension :D

-If your target dies, you can move the hex to another target.
I agree that Hex is awesome however there is some debate over just how this mechanic works. To my mind, the fact that it lasts one hour and the fact that using a higher level spell slot means it can last as long as 24 hours, means that it was intended to last beyond just one combat. However some people are arguing that the way in which it is written means that if you have no targets to switch to, then the spell ends, which essentially makes it a one combat spell.

Also, Bless is, pound for pound, the best concentration spell in the game. With the right party (sharpshooters and great weapon masters), it is always a better use of the cleric's concentration than the alternatives.
Yes, Bless is fantastic. Heck, it'd be awesome even if it only applied to attacks but having it apply to saves as well pushes it over the line of great to awesome. The only downside is that you can only target three people with it as a 1st-level spell.
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Still going!

Screw it.

Fire Bolt, a cantrip, does 1d10 damage on a hit and 2d10 damage on a crit. And can do 1d10 or 2d10 the next turn as well.

Chromatic Orb vs. Witch Bolt. How much damage is done on average by the end of each round (i.e. total damage listed in the columns, so column 2 illustrates the damage from round 1 plus the damage from round 2). In the case of Chromatic Orb, cast Chromatic Orb in round one and Fire Bolt in later rounds. In the case of Witch Bolt, cast Witch Bolt in round one and if it misses, cast Fire Bolt in later rounds.

Code:
AC	Round 1	Round 2	Round 3	Round 4		Round 1	Round 2	Round 3	Round 4
10	11.475	16.150	20.825	25.500		05.525	12.050	18.575	25.100
11	10.800	15.200	19.600	24.000		05.200	11.675	18.150	[b][u]24.625[/u][/b]
12	10.125	14.250	18.375	22.500		04.875	11.300	17.725	[b][u]24.150[/u][/b]
13	09.450	13.300	17.150	21.000		04.550	10.925	[b][u]17.300[/u][/b]	[b][u]23.675[/u][/b]
14	08.775	12.350	15.925	19.500		04.225	10.550	[b][u]16.875[/u][/b]	[b][u]23.200[/u][/b]
15	08.100	11.400	14.700	18.000		03.900	10.175	[b][u]16.450[/u][/b]	[b][u]22.725[/u][/b]
16	07.425	10.450	13.475	16.500		03.575	09.800	[b][u]16.025[/u][/b]	[b][u]22.250[/u][/b]
17	06.750	09.500	12.250	15.000		03.250	09.425	[b][u]15.600[/u][/b]	[b][u]21.775[/u][/b]
18	06.075	08.550	11.025	13.500		02.925	[b][u]09.050[/u][/b]	[b][u]15.175[/u][/b]	[b][u]21.300[/u][/b]

Casting Witch Bolt is competitive with casting Chromatic Orb with regard to DPR for higher AC foes if the caster can get to two rounds, and generally stronger if the caster can get to three rounds.

Granted, if the foe dies or the wizard loses concentration or the foe moves away, then this changes. Then again, the point of using Witch Bolt is to use it in scenarios favorable for its use.

But mathematically speaking, Witch Bolt can be competitive with Chromatic Orb.

Casting it in a second level slot is also competitive with casting Chromatic Orb in a second level slot:

Code:
AC	Round 1	Round 2	Round 3	Round 4		Round 1	Round 2	Round 3	Round 4
10	15.300	19.975	24.650	29.325		11.050	17.575	24.100	[b][u]30.625[/u][/b]
11	14.400	18.800	23.200	27.600		10.400	16.875	[b][u]23.350[/u][/b]	[b][u]29.825[/u][/b]
12	13.500	17.625	21.750	25.875		09.750	16.175	[b][u]22.600[/u][/b]	[b][u]29.025[/u][/b]
13	12.600	16.450	20.300	24.150		09.100	15.475	[b][u]21.850[/u][/b]	[b][u]28.225[/u][/b]
14	11.700	15.275	18.850	22.425		08.450	14.775	[b][u]21.100[/u][/b]	[b][u]27.425[/u][/b]
15	10.800	14.100	17.400	20.700		07.800	14.075	[b][u]20.350[/u][/b]	[b][u]26.625[/u][/b]
16	09.900	12.925	15.950	18.975		07.150	[b][u]13.375[/u][/b]	[b][u]19.600[/u][/b]	[b][u]25.825[/u][/b]
17	09.000	11.750	14.500	17.250		06.500	[b][u]12.675[/u][/b]	[b][u]18.850[/u][/b]	[b][u]25.025[/u][/b]
18	08.100	10.575	13.050	15.525		05.850	[b][u]11.975[/u][/b]	[b][u]18.100[/u][/b]	[b][u]24.225[/u][/b]


At level 5, the story changes:

Code:
AC	Round 1	Round 2	Round 3	Round 4		Round 1	Round 2	Round 3	Round 4
10	12.150	22.050	31.950	41.850		05.850	13.800	21.750	29.700
11	11.475	20.825	30.175	39.525		05.525	13.700	21.875	30.050
12	10.800	19.600	28.400	37.200		05.200	13.600	22.000	30.400
13	10.125	18.375	26.625	34.875		04.875	13.500	22.125	30.750
14	09.450	17.150	24.850	32.550		04.550	13.400	22.250	31.100
15	08.775	15.925	23.075	30.225		04.225	13.300	22.375	[b][u]31.450[/u][/b]
16	08.100	14.700	21.300	27.900		03.900	13.200	[b][u]22.500[/u][/b]	[b][u]31.800[/u][/b]
17	07.425	13.475	19.525	25.575		03.575	13.100	[b][u]22.625[/u][/b]	[b][u]32.150[/u][/b]
18	06.750	12.250	17.750	23.250		03.250	[b][u]13.000[/u][/b]	[b][u]22.750[/u][/b]	[b][u]32.500[/u][/b]

At 5th level due to the fact that Fire Bolt gets more potent, it's only real high ACs and 3 rounds or more where Witch Bolt is competitive.


All in all, Witch Bolt is decent against higher AC foes at levels less than 5.

I do think that Witch Bolt should be errata-ed to give it a little more umph, but it is not crazy bad at lower levels against high AC foes.
 

Chocolategravy

First Post
I love the warlock class, but I still think it would be fun to play a "hexblade" character that's pure Battlemaster Fighter or monk with the Magic Adept feat to cast Hex 1/day.
Paladin/Warlock is pretty hot, although if you're maxing CHR for eldritch blast and aura you won't be swinging much. If you want to swing a weapon though the paladin will give you the smites and with warlock you can hex, although Paladin already has Divine Favor, so they're kind of a good hexblade just by themselves.
 

Chocolategravy

First Post
Chromatic Orb vs. Witch Bolt.
The point of Chromatic Orb is it's 90 foot range and it's variable energy type, neither of which are represented by your DPR comparison, so the fact that the orb is comparable AND has range advantage AND has element choice AND doesn't cost concentration puts it well ahead. A fairer comparison would be Burning Hands which has a range closer to Witch Bolt and doesn't have element choice. The fact that you will typically hit 2+ targets with it (I'm seeing more than 3 on average) will again put it far ahead of Witch Bolt AND it again doesn't take your concentration which is rather important considering how many good concentration spells there are.
 

I agree that Hex is awesome however there is some debate over just how this mechanic works. To my mind, the fact that it lasts one hour and the fact that using a higher level spell slot means it can last as long as 24 hours, means that it was intended to last beyond just one combat. However some people are arguing that the way in which it is written means that if you have no targets to switch to, then the spell ends, which essentially makes it a one combat spell.

You know, I was thinking about this very thing earlier...and nowhere does it say the target has to be hostile, right? You could move the hex to the sacrificial chicken you keep around for just such occasions! Admittedly it would be annoying to maintain concentration for hours and hours at a time, but if you know there is a high likelihood of fecal matter striking the proverbial oscillating blades multiple times in the near future, it would be totally worth it. And this interpretation is valid no matter how badly any player or DM might want to claim it's not; the only real way to make it a strictly one combat spell is via DM fiat, and that's a dick move!

Now your Warlock has a reason to have a pouch full of toads, or some other small critter. First thing you do in the morning? Hex a toad. Combat starts? Squish the toad.

Edited to add: that may seem heartless, but hey, if you have a soft spot for toads, feel free to make it some critter you find more undesirable, maybe beetles or something.
 
Last edited:

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