Spiderman No Way Home Trailer

[doctorbadwolf]

Strictly speaking, the variant from the end of Loki season 1 learned how from Sylvie, but he definitely isn’t capable of grand-scale enchantment by that point. Of course, time has no meaning in the TVA…

Exactly that, Loki has been limited mostly by his own smug arrogance and lack of need to grow beyond that. The variant has had those traits punched into submission by experience, and met Lokis more powerful than himself. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Loki rivals Strange going forward.

Exactly that. Hank Pym should be added to the list of morally flawed Marvel heroes.

Okay, it came across like you were equivocating between Pym's abuse and Stark's addiction, and I was like....uhhhhhh lol

ANyway, yeah, TBH I think they should have either moved Pym into the villain space or removed that event in one of the various reboots, years ago, but barring that, yeah. Abusers aren't just morally flawed, they're unacceptable targets of hero worship on any level. (not that I think hero worship is ever actually a useful and good thing, but that's even further tangential)

 

[Rune]

(not that I think hero worship is ever actually a useful and good thing, but that's even further tangential)

The entire industry is built on it.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The entire industry is built on it.

Okay.

 

[Umbran]

Well, and like, he's obviously also depressed and suffering from PTSD, and honestly I think you have to kind of set his lack of treatment at the feet of the social order in which he lives, at least in the first couple IM movies.

The social order in which he lives is one in which he is immensely wealthy. He could get treatment.

One of my usual players has PTSD. They find Tony to be one of their favorite characters in the MCU, but also notes that unless you are at the point where you are deemed no longer competent to make decisions, you are responsible for a decision to not seek treatment.

Things can still go wrong for those with mental health issues while in treatment, and some leeway may be given. But it you aren't even trying, then that, at least, is on them.

Loki can do magic other than enchantment, a Loki that has run around the multiverse a bit and learned some stuff, with a bit more dedication than he has previously had, could be truly terrifying.

And, in the comics, is truly terrifying.

Um...abusing people is actually a moral failing all by itself, and Hank Pym should be "knocked" for it.

Yep. Really, have none of you read The Ultimates? It was an alternate universe Avengers, written my Mark Millar. In normal comics continuity, I believe Pym hits his wife once (which is not acceptable). In Ultimates, he's a habitual offender, who verbally, emotionally, and physically abuses her on a regular basis. When Ultimates Cap learns this, he calls Pym out, goads him into growing to giant size and then drops a building under construction on Pym, nearly killing him.

Not that Ultimates Cap is a Boy Scout - he's a violent jingoist, who at one point, when asked if he was going to give up a fight uttered the immortal words, "What do you think this A on my forehead stands for? France?!?" Because everyone Millar writes is, in some way, a dillweed.

 

[ART!]

really? Iron Man is started life as an unscrupulous weapons manufacturer with a drinking problem, Black widow was an assassin, Hulk is an outright monster. if anything Punisher was a more honest portrayal of vigilante behaviour, reflecting some of the 1970s cynicism

Stark's heroism consists at least in part of him making amends for his weapons manufacturer history and his alcoholism. Ditto Natasha. One of the core premises of Hulk/Banner is the question of whether he's a "monster" or not.

 

[Umbran]

Exactly that, Loki has been limited mostly by his own smug arrogance and lack of need to grow beyond that. The variant has had those traits punched into submission by experience, and met Lokis more powerful than himself. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Loki rivals Strange going forward.

Doctor Strange #381-#385 Loki: Sorcerer Supreme

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The social order in which he lives is one in which he is immensely wealthy. He could get treatment.

And one in which seeking treatment is treated as a weakness.

One of my usual players has PTSD. They find Tony to be one of their favorite characters in the MCU, but also notes that unless you are at the point where you are deemed no longer competent to make decisions, you are responsible for a decision to not seek treatment.

Things can still go wrong for those with mental health issues while in treatment, and some leeway may be given. But it you aren't even trying, then that, at least, is on them.

And, if you'll recall what I said, it was that in the first couple movies it's not really a fair criticism. Eventually it becomes outright hard to believe that those around him haven't been trying to get him into treatment. Like, it's not like they show Pepper trying and Tony refusing or simply failing to follow through, they just act like everyone around him would just...not try? I think maybe we shouldn't try to get too nitpicky about real world particulars, here. The story simply doesn't make sense if we do.

And, in the comics, is truly terrifying.

Yeah, they have slowly moved toward the comics over time in the MCU, in terms of who and what Thor and Loki really are. Ragnarok is definitely not all science. Odin is dead, and speaks to Thor from death. They're supernatural beings, not just aliens with advanced tech.

Yep. Really, have none of you read The Ultimates? It was an alternate universe Avengers, written my Mark Millar. In normal comics continuity, I believe Pym hits his wife once (which is not acceptable). In Ultimates, he's a habitual offender, who verbally, emotionally, and physically abuses her on a regular basis. When Ultimates Cap learns this, he calls Pym out, goads him into growing to giant size and then drops a building under construction on Pym, nearly killing him.

Not that Ultimates Cap is a Boy Scout - he's a violent jingoist, who at one point, when asked if he was going to give up a fight uttered the immortal words, "What do you think this A on my forehead stands for? France?!?" Because everyone Millar writes is, in some way, a dillweed.

Yeah tbh I think Wasp is the only Ultimates team member I actually like in The Ultimates. Ultimates Cap is...just terrible. A complete 180 from nearly any other Cap ever written. Thor is just kindof a dumb arrogant jerk. etc.

But! That universe is chock full of really good character premises, which they used well in the MCU early on, especially in the first Thor movie. The whole thing where Loki pretends to be Thor's very mortal brother and convinces people that Thor is just a crazy metahuman is very good. I kinda wish they'd done more with that in the MCU, but the nods to it are very cool.

 

[Umbran]

And one in which seeking treatment is treated as a weakness.

I am not sure that's really true, but regardless, I don't think, "They would have thought I was weak," makes much of an excuse for harm brought to others.

And, if you'll recall what I said, it was that in the first couple movies it's not really a fair criticism. Eventually it becomes outright hard to believe that those around him haven't been trying to get him into treatment.

The original Iron Man movie was far back enough for them to play the generally false "I'm strong enough to handle it" card. Marvel was brave enough to show a hero with a problem, but not brave enough to show a hero getting help for his problem.

But! That universe is chock full of really good character premises...

And, we got Miles Morales from it, and that's a plus.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I am not sure that's really true, but regardless, I don't think, "They would have thought I was weak," makes much of an excuse for harm brought to others.

I never said it was?

And, we got Miles Morales from it, and that's a plus.

Sure, I was only speaking to the actual team called the Ultimates, in their primary story run, not the entire Ultimate universe.

 

[Umbran]

I never said it was?

Setting aside how it may be in accurate - Why point out that the social order views seeking treatment as weakness, except as a mitigating circumstance for not seeking treatment?

Sure, I was only speaking to the actual team called the Ultimates, in their primary story run, not the entire Ultimate universe.

Fair enough. In my defense, you did say (emphasis mine), "That universe is chock full of really good character premises...."