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Spiked Chains: Pure cheese or sometimes OK?

Storm Raven

First Post
Tetsubo said:
I assumed the Mercurial swords were inspired by Wolfe. I only read the first two books but I enjoyed them.

Even as an execution tool such a sword would be silly. A sword, any sword, is designed to have the absolute minimum of everything, weight, mass, width, etc. The art of the swordsmith is taking away everthing that isn't needed to get the job done. Adding a tube down the spine of a blade is simply dumb. Just an empty tube would ruin the sword's balance and make the blade prone to snapping or bending. To hold enough mercury to be "effective" the tube would have to have a fair diameter, I'd say at least an 1" or so. Which means that the sword isn't slicing through anything. It becomes a blunt weapon with a slight edge on it.

Then there is the whole "swinging a tube of toxic metal around" problem...

Well, Wolfe's books were supposed to be set in the far future, with wierd technology cropping up in odd places in odd ways. It is possible that Terminus Est was a holdover from some earlier age (it was more or less unique), and had been made with ultra advanced technology, which might overcome some of these problems.
 

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werk

First Post
Spiked chains are No Big Deal!

They only work 'too good' on a limited number of enemies.
They require a lot of feats to back up.
Those feats require a stat spread.

It all comes out in the wash.
 

Victim

First Post
In my opinion, the point of a spiked chain is to create a weapon that a single class fighter can work to master without topping out. With pretty much every other weapon, a fighter can quickly amass the related feats, making multiclassing extremely attractive. Or the fighter can expand to other areas, at the cost of having his later feats not stack. It takes a very high level fighter to have all the feats that can be used with the spiked chain effectively.

Let's take a look at core feats only:

1: Exotic Weapon, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise
2: Weapon Focus
3: Iron Will (yeah, this doesn't have anything to do with spiked chains, but pretty much all my fighters take it anyway)
4: Weapon Specialization
6: Improved Trip, Dodge
8: Power Attack
9: Cleave
10: Greater Weapon Focus
12: Greater Weapon Spec, Mobility
14: Spring Attack

At this point, the spiked chain fighter is mostly complete - he can make many AoO, trip, use two handed Power attack, and spring attack to trade attacks on a 2 for 1 basis. He's not really tapped out though - Imp Disarm would work with the weapon's size and disarm bonus (but the character is very effective vs humanoid opponents, so it might be a waste), Great Cleave offers superior army killing power, Whirlwind Attack can be fun, etc. But those extra feats are pretty marginal (unless I'm forgeting something major).

But say a sword and board or two handed guy will run out of decent core feats at around level 6, leaving further fighter levels only filler before he can reach the dubious heights of greater weapon focus and spec.
 


pawsplay

Hero
Victim said:
But say a sword and board or two handed guy will run out of decent core feats at around level 6, leaving further fighter levels only filler before he can reach the dubious heights of greater weapon focus and spec.

Really? At that level, i'm just getting started.

Sir Sword McBoard, Human Fighter
1 Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes
2 Power Attack
3 Cleave Danger Sense
4 Improved Shield Bash
6 Two Weapon Fighting, Combat Expertise
8 Improved Bull Rush
9 Improved Sunder
10 Combat Brute
12 Weapon Focus (longsword), Improved Disarm
14 Power Critical (longsword)
15 Improved Critical (longsword)
16 Weapon Specialization (longsword)
18 Greater Weapon Focus (longsword), Dodge
20 Greater Weapon Specialization (longsword)
 

Steverooo

First Post
pawsplay said:
Sir Sword McBoard, Human Fighter
1 Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes

Ummm, if he's Human, and also a Fighter, then he's short a Feat. One for Human, one for Fighter, and one more because everybody gets one at first level...
 


Kormydigar

First Post
ehren37 said:
They have the right to dislike it, but in dam near every situation I've seen people gripe its because they dont understand how attacks of opportunity work. The person initiates the action, the AoO goes off, the action is resolved. You cant trip someone attempting to stand, since the action is completed after the AoO. The other "problem" is people letting multiple AoO's on the same foe for moving through multiple squares (you can only get one AoO off an opponent for movement no matter what they do). Then theres the whirlwind whine - that an enlarged spiked chain wielder can do a whirlwind attack against a bunch of targets. Whirlwind is a mediocre feat with several terrible pre-reqs that actually have nothing to do with its use. Its usable primarily against non-threats... if you're ever surrounded by a bunch of powerful foes, its better to full attack one to drop it fast. People also forget to apply melee cover when using the spiked chain as well... it doesnt magically pass through your buddies/enemy to attack the thing on the other side of them.

So yeah, most of the gripes about the spiked chain are by people who dont bother to learn the rules, and seem to assume that anything that makes a high level fighter even remotely close to the power of a mage is automatically broken. They are FIGHTERS. All they do is fight. They have crappy skills and no utility magic. They should basically dominate combat at all levels.

Good points. One thing related to the melee cover issue you brought up is that you can't make an AOO against an opponent that has cover relative to you. That was the biggest attempt of abuse I saw from the weapon. A character would try an AOO against a foe who was 10 feet away with an ally or other foe between him and the target. I dislike spiked chains (and dire flails, double axes, ect.) simply because I think they look flickted. :)
 

Kormydigar

First Post
bowbe said:
Divergence:
I don't buy "reach weapons" not being able to hit adjacent squares in most situations. Adjacent next to you? Perhaps not, Adjacent in front of you? You've got to be joking right? Baseball kids, Baseball! The rules lawyers forgot something fairly simple that most kids learn when they play their first game of baseball. Choke up on the bat! Hell even I had to play baseball.

Case
You are quite correct about your reach assumptions but sadly common sense has no place in D&D combat. First of all the concept of a "front" and "rear" do not exist in D&D 3.X. A combatant takes up one or more squares and seemingly flashes to face all directions like a flashing rotating jpeg. If D&D combat did incorporate facing, then your point would be correct.
 

bowbe

First Post
You are quite correct about your reach assumptions but sadly common sense has no place in D&D combat. First of all the concept of a "front" and "rear" do not exist in D&D 3.X.

Absolutely one of the points I was trying to make Kormydigar. I guess I just house rule the obvious stuff then again I've been using miniatures to play out combats just so everyone knows where the heck they are in relation to everything else since I got my first sets back in like 1980.

The nice thing with 3.x is if something doesn't make sense you can create a feasable rule that makes things work the way they should. Well I do anyhow.

Case
 

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