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Spiked Chains: Pure cheese or sometimes OK?

Kormydigar

First Post
bowbe said:
Absolutely one of the points I was trying to make Kormydigar. I guess I just house rule the obvious stuff then again I've been using miniatures to play out combats just so everyone knows where the heck they are in relation to everything else since I got my first sets back in like 1980.

The nice thing with 3.x is if something doesn't make sense you can create a feasable rule that makes things work the way they should. Well I do anyhow.

Case
We don't bother making sense of the senseless these days. I had been creating house rules for all kinds of things for years. When we want something approximating realism in our combats we just play GURPS. Its easier.
 

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Crust

First Post
I just rolled up a half-orc fighter NPC for me current Age of Worms group. His name's Titus Blacksmith (as he is a blacksmith from Diamond Lake, formerly a pit fighter from Calimshan sold into Smenk's service). He's a fighter 4.

His feats allow him to maximize the spiked chain:

Exotic (of course)
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Combat Reflexes
Power Attack

He uses his chains as a two-handed weapon, not a double weapon, and with combat reflexes and combat expertise turned up, he's a whirling dervish of chain, lashing out with ranged trips whenever an enemy enters his threat range. Opponents topple, allowing the others (including a rogue wielding kukris - prone sneak) to attack prone foes and make short work of them. I'll give him improved combat expertise at later levels, making him untouchable as he lashes out with trip attacks.

I also allow the half-orc to use his chains to lash and pull himself up to heights up to 10', depending on the environment.
 
Last edited:

Victim

First Post
pawsplay said:
Really? At that level, i'm just getting started.

Sir Sword McBoard, Human Fighter
1 Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes
2 Power Attack
3 Cleave Danger Sense
4 Improved Shield Bash
6 Two Weapon Fighting, Combat Expertise
8 Improved Bull Rush
9 Improved Sunder
10 Combat Brute
12 Weapon Focus (longsword), Improved Disarm
14 Power Critical (longsword)
15 Improved Critical (longsword)
16 Weapon Specialization (longsword)
18 Greater Weapon Focus (longsword), Dodge
20 Greater Weapon Specialization (longsword)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I said Core Feats, which leaves you out Danger Sense, Combat Brute, and Power Critical. Besides, if you're using CW, then there are some better feats anyway. No CQC? How sad.

Also, I was only refering to feats that are, you know, good. You have Combat Reflexes without a way to force AoOs. Improved Disarm and Imp Sunder both work pretty much the same way, leaving you with largely redundant options - and a disadvantage against two handed weapon. If Disarming is barely worthwhile when racking up a +2 weapon bonus and a +4 two hander bonus to the opposed roll, then is it really a good idea to use it with a worse weapon? And then there's Imp Bullrush.

It's really a matter of whether or not you can find feats to take and hopefully don't suck. It's whether or not the marginal benefits of further fighter levels (ie, bonus feats) are equivalent to the benefits available from going with other classes. Is picking up Improved Bullrush for free worth a bigger HD, fast movement in medium armor (since your going TWF with the shield, Mithril Plate is probably prefered anyway), more skills, and Uncanny Dodge? Oh wait, there's Rage too, which can give back half of what you missed by not taking Imp Bullrush when needed, amongst its other benefits. Are you really getting that much use out Improved Bullrush?
 

pawsplay

Hero
Victim said:
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I said Core Feats, which leaves you out Danger Sense, Combat Brute, and Power Critical. Besides, if you're using CW, then there are some better feats anyway. No CQC? How sad.

That's fine. There's still plenty to chew on.

Also, I was only refering to feats that are, you know, good. You have Combat Reflexes without a way to force AoOs.

Um, in my universe, AoOs happen. Forcing an AoO is a specific kind of tactic, one that has nothing to do with a build like this. This is so you can smack someone for each and every iterative trip attack, or to prevent 1d4+1 fiendish wolves from mobbing your spellcaster, etc.

Improved Disarm and Imp Sunder both work pretty much the same way, leaving you with largely redundant options - and a disadvantage against two handed weapon.

But at no disadvantage against someone with a rapier. Sunder is handy for fighting hydras and certain other creatures, and can be used to annihilate a weapon if you have something adamantine to work with. Improved Disarm is handy for snagging wands and staves.

And then there's Imp Bullrush.

What's wrong with Improved Bull Rush? In addition to lining you up for some tactical feats, it's great for shoving people into webs or flaming walls, knocking people off ledges, hedging someone in against your rogue, or reach games.

It's really a matter of whether or not you can find feats to take and hopefully don't suck. It's whether or not the marginal benefits of further fighter levels (ie, bonus feats) are equivalent to the benefits available from going with other classes. Is picking up Improved Bullrush for free worth a bigger HD, fast movement in medium armor (since your going TWF with the shield, Mithril Plate is probably prefered anyway), more skills, and Uncanny Dodge? Oh wait, there's Rage too, which can give back half of what you missed by not taking Imp Bullrush when needed, amongst its other benefits. Are you really getting that much use out Improved Bullrush?

We are talking about a sword and shield fighter. The barbarian probably wants to go two-handed. The barbarian has some advantages, but he cannot begin to compete in the AC department with this guy. Full plate, baby.

Every time I've seen numbers or arena fights run on the wizards optimization board, the fighter wins over the barbarian in damage output. The barbarian is partially a skill character, and indeed, is less able at fighting than, yes, a fighter.

The "marginal" benefits of fighter feats include the ability to dominate combat on several fronts, some outstanding combos, and deep access to feat chains. Even a very vanilla fighter has an incredible versatility compared to other melee characters.
 



NilesB

First Post
Huh, acording to the srd you seem to be correct, however any logic that keeps it from dealing bashing should also apply to the morningstar.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Its piercing only in the PHB as well.

The Morningstar- a large spiked mass on the end of a haft- is perfectly designed to deal piercing and bludgeoning damage.

A spiked chain has its mass far more evenly distributed.

The weapons that SHOULD do P/B damage (in addition to the Morningstar) are the Flails! Maybe the Maces (since they're usually flanged).
 

NilesB

First Post
Lets restate that a little more accurately :

Morningstar: a weighted Iron bludgeon with spikes attached.
Spiked chain : a weighted Iron bludgeon with spikes attached.
 

Moon-Lancer

First Post
NilesB said:
Lets restate that a little more accurately :

Morningstar: a weighted Iron bludgeon with spikes attached.
Spiked chain : a weighted Iron bludgeon with spikes attached.

a spiked chain is really just a morning star with reach isent it?
 

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