spontaneous & prepared casters, of all casting flavours

[Bladesinger_Boy]

So, Wizards and Sorcerers are both arcane spellcasters. Wizards prepare arcane spells. Sorcerers spontaneously cast arcane spells. Clear enough so far.

Clerics and Favored Souls are both "godly" divine spellcasters. Clerics prepare divine spells. Favored Souls spontaneously cast divine spells.

Druids are "naturey" divine spellcasters. Druids prepare divine spells. Now, question is: Shouldn't there be a spontaneous "naturey" divine spellcaster? Does the Spirit Shaman do that? Actually, I just looked it up for this post and the answer is "kind of". They select a few spells each day they can spontaneously cast from for that day. Each day, they re-pick what spells they want to be able to spontaneously cast from. I would get rid of that and just have set known spells (that can be retrained as normal just like sorcs).

I also HATE independent spell columns. They all want to have their own rules and own spell lists and re-invent the wheel. No, they actually follow very clear patterns and are not totally unique, unpredicented. So developing clearer categories to put spellcasters into is very useful. Indy spell columns also suck at mid and high level where they cap out and stop further growth. Spellcasting advancement, even if smaller than a full spellcaster, should exist at different points along a clearly connected spectrum... not a bunch of discontinous "new"/"different" of spellcasting that all have power-level peaks and troughs at various level ranges.

So, let's create a table. So, 4 "power sources": Arcane, Divine, Nature, Psionic. And each has two full spellcasting types: prepared or spontaneous. So...

POWER SOURCE_________PREPARED CASTER_____SPONTANEOUS CASTER
Arcane.............................Wizard............................Sorcerer
Divine..............................Cleric..............................Favored Soul
Nature.............................Druid...............................Spirit Shaman
Psionic.............................Psion..............................Psychic Warrior

As I wrote in the table, this means make the difference between Psions and Psychic Warriors an issue of spontaneous versus prepared. Which means making Psions prepared. Or, creating another Psionic full spellcaster who is the prepared guy and the Psychic Warrior becomes a half/reduced spell advancement version of the Psion.

The point here is that there are 4 big types of spellcasting each with their own spell list. Clerics and Favored Souls cast the same spells, Druids and Spirit Shamans, can the same spells, Psions and Psychic Warriors cast the same spells. Every spellcasting class, whether a base class like a Duskblade or a Beguiler, or a PrC like a Blackguard or Assassin, falls into this schema. If they have unique spells, still give them their unique spells: Rangers are prepared Nature casters, buy they are still the only ones who can cast Hunter's Mercy or whatever. Consider their list of spells which used to be the only available list either a list of spells to be preared from like additionally accessible spells, or added possible choices for known spells for spontaneous spellcasters.

Where does the Bard fit in? Maybe a 1/2 caster in two different spell classes, like a Sorc/Druid or Psion/Cleric. I'll have to work on that.

Okay, any thoughts? How do we improve it? What stuff would have to be fixed to allow it (like Bards, or prepared Psion caster)?

 

[Sadrik]

I think you are on to something.

Philosophically I don't like a "nature" spell source. They should either divine or arcane. Depends on your perspective I suppose. It has always been a divine class so I would go with precedence here.

In my own campaign, I have druids worshiping spirits and I have clerics worshiping the pantheon of gods (not a single god). However, in my next iteration of the setting I am likely to remove both those concepts and have druids simply be elementalists, a different flavor of mages and clerics be mystics who focus on a mindset if you will. That mindset gives them power. The mindsets will be a combination of the domains.

Anyway, overarching everything I want the system to be broad enough to accomidate the standard D&D cultural precepts and any new cultural precepts that a DM want to apply to the setting.

 

[Bladesinger_Boy]

4 sources, domains w/ reqs

Having all spells as either Arcane OR Divine would be fine- IF all spellcasting could fit into either of those categories. Even if "Nature" spells stay pidgeon-holed into Divine, what about Psionics: Arcane or Divine? You see my point.

Think of things this way. Under this spell system, you have these genres or sources of spellcasting, like Arcane or Divine (or whatever other sources, Nature, Psionics, etc). The choice element of customization comes into play with which domains are you able to pick from. I think having more flavored magic fits a lot better. Think of both the thematic difference as the different spells between clerics and druids, "worship" divine versus "nature" divine. Doesn't it feel more clear, fleshed out, and dramatically colorful to have two different sources for these?

Now, think about these two stances: is it better to have two very broad "Sources" being either Arcane or Divine? Or, is it better to have four spell sources: Arcane, Divine, Nature, Psionics?

DOMAINS
If all the spells from 3.5 were divided into each of the possible sources (either 2 or 4), each source would have unique spells and more of a unique niche. Some options to handle domains would:
A) make domains unique to one specific source without requirements (ex: these are the possible choices if arcane, these other ones if divine, etc, and you can pick whatever choosable domain w/o any reqs)
B) make domains unique to one specific source with requirements (ex: these are the possible choices if arcane, these other ones if divine, etc, and you must meet the reqs before being able to choose that domain)
C) make domain selection occur regardless of source without requirements (ex: pick whatever domains you want)
D) make domain selection occur regardless of source but with requirements (ex: pick whatever domains you want IF you meet the reqs)

Right now, I'd vote for option D. We make reasonable reqs for the domains and, if you meet the reqs, go ahead. So, for example, if we were talking about the Air Domains, meeting any ONE of the following reqs would be fine:
- "worship" divine spells & God has Air in their portfolio
- Lightning Reflexes feat
- Evasion ability
- natural Fly speed
- natural electricity resistance or immunity
- ability to cast any Electricity spell

Something like the Healing domain might need stiffer reqs, to deter arcane spellcasters from too easily accessing it. Here are some ideas. Again, only ONE req is needed:
- 4 ranks in the Heal skill & "worship" divine spells & God has Healing in their portfolio
- 4 ranks in the Heal skill & ability to cast any spell that heals HP (not necessarily "Healing" spell)
- Lay-on Hands ability
- Wholeness of Body ability

Back on to sources for a second, we would need to divide up the 3.5 spells and psionic powers into the four groups of: Arcane, Divine, Nature, Psionics. It's not that hard thought-wise as they're already divided up into Sorc/Wiz spells, Druid spells, Cleric spells, Psionic powers. The added work will come from:
1) making sure each source has unique spells by removing duplication between sources
2) dividing up indy/other spell column spells (ie: Ranger, Paladin, Bard) into either base source spells or domain spells
3) consolidating all the 3.5 spells, spell compendium and the few others, into one massive spell list

 

[Omegaxicor]

I always decided that "nature" was a sub-division of "worship" and that druids were basically Clerics of Elhonna/Obad-Hai and ranger/druid and others spells were drawn from that.

I am also considering Gods like Elhonna and Obad-Hai have NO clerics but have Druids instead

but my games always had three sources Divine, Arcane and Psionic